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Post by pheobus29 on Oct 16, 2006 12:04:40 GMT -5
I said it while I was there, and I'll say it here for any new visitors to see; great job with this tournament guys. I'm David. I was the Ultramarine player.
The tables were great. It was just the way I like to see the them layed out. A nice variety, lots of it, it looked good and played well.
The missions were just about right. Hopefully there is the same varierty, or even a bit more for the next tournament. The competition was really good, as expected. The prizes in the middle gave it a fun, local flavor. Very nice.
Will you be posting the scores anywhere?
Can you give us the comp rubric you used or at least a general philosophy as to how you scored that? I was playing an army that was not mine, so I will not likely bring it to the next tournament anyway. But, losing 29 points to comp is something I might like to avoid for the next one.
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moz
Scout
John A.
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Post by moz on Oct 16, 2006 15:27:19 GMT -5
My congrats as well on pulling off a well organized event. Had some great games and really enjoyed myself. Congrats to Eric on the big win, and on not falling asleep while walking through my Tau in round 3.
Add me to the list for players baffled and put off by the comp scoring though. Kudos for having the guts to be tough about it and have it matter, negative kudos for giving us the following guidance:
--------- The way we will be judging this was discussed on the message board before, but for those who missed it: Follow these guidelines and you will score well: 1: Is this an army you would enjoy playing against. 2: Themed. We believe that it really is that simple.
- Go out of your way to make a Themed fun army even at the expense of not taking just the best things in the codex. Make it a army people would go out of there way to get a game in with and you will score Very High.
- Make a Fun Themed army you would enjoy playing against and you will score Very well.
- Make a army filled with only the nastiest things in your codex, min/max squads, and Theme-less, well we have no problem giving out Zero's. Make a fun army…nuf said? ---------
And then for instance giving Mike Hicks a 17 for his Tau Pirhana army. Fun to play against? Yes (unless you didn't bring anything with Str 5+. Who's fault would that be though?) Themed? Yes. 100% themed. Ok cool, 17/50. Next!
I'd gripe about my own score, but I think maybe Tau were just doomed to begin with on this one.
From what I understand, the actual comp system was a 25 point baseline that would move up and down based on specific elements - like min-maxed, troop ratio, fluff friendly. That's fine, but that's not what we were instructed to prepare for. A little more guidance on the criteria (that will actually be used) will certainly help you get the armies you want to see, and keep us out of towners a little happier once the scores are announced.
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MajorSoB
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Post by MajorSoB on Oct 16, 2006 16:35:48 GMT -5
Glad that everyone showed up and had a great time. I hope that this event will be the start of some bigger and better tournaments. A few things that did stick out in my mind were the following:
1) Of all the tournemants I have played in and been associated with, I believe that the level of competition and the great sportmanship showed by ever person participating was flawless and first class. Thank you to everone involved.
2) I loved the tables. Yes, I put together 4 (the crappy ones!), but overall I think this was also the best looking GT I have been to. Everyones armies looked great and we saw a wide variety of choices, not just the typical "Marinehammer" that so many 40K'ers complain about. Nice job again.
3) I do also echo the concerns voiced in the comp scoring. I did get about what I should, having 4 assault cannons, three 6 man troop squads, etc, but in my defence I did also play my Iron Father ( who sucks point wise, but is fluffy), and although my army could have sat on its ass and shot, I did bring the fight to all my opponent and tried to make fun games for everyone, hopefully this was reflected in the sportmanship scoring. I also disagree with the 17 given to Mike for his THEMED pirahna army. I admit that I did not get a chance to play it, and still have NEVER played Dan Pearson either (your day will come!) but in my opinion it was a mobile Tau army, Themed and did not deserve the scores it was given. A comp rubric, or at least some insight to the guideline used to judge would be nice. I know this is always a topic for debate and I am sure that Shaun, Jay and Courney did their very best to be fair, but next tournement I do feel we need this explained better so that people can decide how burly to make their army and how much it will cost them comp wise.
4) The awards and trophies were outstanding. Great job painting, next year I think I will actually have to try and win something since one of the awards would have really looked nice in my living room.
5) I would like to see the results posted somewhere. I am sure this will happen shortly.
6) Thanks to everyone involved again EXCEPT the RIT tools who were non existent except for the campus Gestopo representative they hired to sleep at the door. Great quality investment, that was more improtant than actually talking to and thanking the people who came to your con! The next time you want us to help promote your con( and put money in your pockets from our hard work), I think a reacharound would be the least you could do...
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Post by dragons3 on Oct 16, 2006 18:27:49 GMT -5
Thank you"Fantastic 4", (Chis, Shawn, Jay & Alex) for a well organized 40k weekend. O.K. who's the invisible girl? ;D ;D ;D ;D I had 5 good to great matches, the people I played had great personalities and I'm glad I didn't knock any of our guys out, (ARE YOU LISTING C4). Ya, my only lose was to C4, NIDS on NIDS, came down to 3 things: 1) Terrain selection, C4 chose correctly, he had woods 7 inches closer to use. which forced me to move first. 2) Moving first with night fight "wasted turn", had no choice, needed to deep strike to take out his Bio-vours. He killed the first, I made a mistake on the second, he died. 3) And the most import one of all was I moved in with calculated shots to kill his Synapse Warriors "NOT KNOWING THAT GW CHANGED THE RULE BACK ON SYNAPSE STATING THAT THEY CAN'T SUFFER INSTANT DEATH." Of course C4 told me after I moved everything and started shooting. Just kidding,I enjoyed playing him, he also was the first to beat me since the last week of July. I enjoyed going out with "DaBoyz" & Company Saturday night, I learned a lot about you guys. And thank you all @ Boldo's for helping me prepare for this tournament not having comp. or painting experience. Welcome new viewer members, and don't worry about being shy at this website, right "IRONONE!" And C4, your next!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D CIAO! :
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Iron Warrior
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Post by Iron Warrior on Oct 16, 2006 18:50:51 GMT -5
I had a great time at the tournement, The boards looked great! Most fair in terrain set up as well. I was really shocked. Well ran I might add, thanks Jay, Courtney and Shuan.
I for one, thought the comp system was well done. Although I am one to be very harsh when I judge comp. I know of the items the judges were looking for was: Did you take the same thing/squad/squadren over and over again. Did you repeat the same troops? Did you take a nasty tough army? did you min/max (not just squads but troop selcetions) Did you take only the best things? Theme and fluff was just Part of the score. I dont know exactly what they judged on but I know that was some of the stuff they looked at. Im sure Jay, Chris and Shuan will explain.
Major SoB I played you the Thursday night before and told you what would get dinged.
Yeah and what Dragon said. ;D
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Sanguinary
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WOW, his son looks strangely like Shaun,
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Post by Sanguinary on Oct 16, 2006 19:36:00 GMT -5
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Post by shaun on Oct 16, 2006 20:15:07 GMT -5
We will post our replies about this subject soon. I just want to take the time to discuss with chris and jay so we can provide a detail about our thought process. A short summary is that we based the army at 25 points and adjusted based on how it compared to what the "army codex" had to offer, how tough the army version was and what were you trying to accomplish with the army (ie offering your opponent a completely fair and balanced representation of the army).
Points were added and subtracted based on what the army variety, theme and fluff had. Did you take a lot of variety from the force org options, did you take items that are rarely used, did you take multiples of units and if you did so what was the reason (ie how "useful", "tough" or "effective" are those choices), did you take troop choices and were they min/max for effectiveness or have variety of options, were their nasty combos or options, did you take an army that focuses on fluff (ie did your army take the "unique" options availible to it) or was that fluff solely based on taking an army made up of effective items, etc........
We aren't saying we didn't give people credit for taking a "themed" army. They probably received some points for that, but then you factor in other items that more than offset the gain.
We all know that there is no way to come up with a perfect or effective rubric that can't be taken advantage of. All we tried to do is provide an "objective" view from 3 different individuals perceptions who applied those objective perceptions on a similar bases to all participants. We didn't specifically single out anyone to "critique" their army list harsher or easier. As i said, this is a brief breakdown and we will address this in greater detail shortly.
Thanks for all who attended and hope everyone still had an enjoyable experience. This matter will be addressed and clarified for future events.
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MajorSoB
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Post by MajorSoB on Oct 16, 2006 20:25:13 GMT -5
Major SoB I played you the Thursday night before and told you what would get dinged. No problem, I did expect to get dinged, and was not disappointed! I took what I liked and I payed the price. My only concern was that there were people there that took THEMED armies that they liked and felt would be fun, and they payed even more heavily than I did. I was busting Courtney balls about the 17 I thought I got, thinking it was a bit low but really it didnt matter. I then realized I read the sheet wrong and it was 5th Street that had the 17. I liked his theme and would have ripped him apart ahd I played him. I think he was judged a bit harshly since he did not bring the most burly army. Yeah, orcs would have been in troulbe with that I agree, but my marines and several other armies would have shredded it. Look at his battle points, I am sure you will agree. Anyways, it was a great weekend. Everyone there was wonderful and I great time was had by all. The comp thing was the only thing I heard any conplaints over, everything else was excellent. All I am saying is that as good as it was, they eare a few things we can tweek to make it even better. I have pictures and will post them later in the week when time allows. Again congrats to everyone, great job Shawn, Jay, Chris, Boldo, Tommy, Norton, and even you Dragon for those halfassed camo boards! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by ccourtney on Oct 16, 2006 21:37:07 GMT -5
As Kemp said I'm sure we will post more about the comp score when the three of us get together next.
I guess I just wanted to point out:
- Only 5 armies were given a below 25 score (Starting comp score). - There was a 30 point swing from the lowest score to highest. - The average comp score was a 35/50.
In my opinion the best Themed and Comp army should get at least 30 points higher than the lowest, or comp scores do not become a factor in the tournament and everyone brings the nastiest army they can make. Those players that went above and beyond should be awarded. The average score awarded was only 13 points lower than the highest score (35 vs 47) so the best comp armies only had a 13 point score advantage over the average score....
I apologize to anyone who believes they were scored lower than they should have been. The three judges have been to more GT's than I can count and have seen the nastiest worst composition armies that everyone in the entire GT complains about. We have seen armies that try and use theme as an excuse to take only the best and nastiest units (I took a huge Demon Prince, 9 Obliterators and 4 Bassy's cause I'm Iron Warriors......thats themed right?) We have had to play against them also and never enjoyed it.
I'm sure we will post more about this to try and clarify the scores, it's very hard to do this without picking on a pointing out armies in particular, and I don't believe we want to do that.
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moz
Scout
John A.
Posts: 42
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Post by moz on Oct 17, 2006 0:21:46 GMT -5
Appreciate the response Chris and Shaun. I know most of the people scratching their heads over this still had a great time and a lot of good games. Any criticism of your methods here are only meant to be constructive - so next time will be even better.
Take your time fiddling it all out, but we are definitely interested in what will need to be changed to make our lists competetive next time around.
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Iron Warrior
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Post by Iron Warrior on Oct 17, 2006 0:48:06 GMT -5
I Complety agree with courtney, being an Iron warrior player, it is in my own right to build a fluffy army. 9 oblits, 4 Ordance, a tooled DP and min sized las/plas squads (so I can fit the rest in)
Now that is completely fluffy and by the rules, right? Iron Warriors are the seige specalists of 40k. They need large amount of ordance to crack open bunkers and The obliterators were thier inventions as well have an affinity with them thus allowing them to take more than 1 squad of them. They are lead or can be lead by a Deamon Prince like in the book Storm of Iron when the old leader was transforming into one during the book and similarly in Dead Sky, Black sun with Honsous enemies (the Dreadnought Lord). Now to fit that all in we need to reduce the size of our squads to a small number. Thus making a completley fluffy army right? Great we have a "Theme"
Nasty as nails and rock hard. Think that IW list should get a Max or even a good comp score? Hell no. It took only the best stuff. It repeated the same vehcile, weapons combo or squad over and over. It doesnt matter how well it would do or if its themed well. Its not in good compisition.
I realize people have diffrent opinions of what is good comp but the judges do have years of experience under thier belts. I believe thier judgement was fair. 25 seemed to be an average score and only 4 people scored below that.
What was the Piranah army list that got a 17? I saw it but didnt get a close look at it. From what I saw it was 3 Squads of Piranahs, 2 Devil fishes and 3 Hammer heads. What else was in it? Themes was not the only thing judged...im not sure how much of a factor Theme had in the comp scores but it looks like by the scores and by the armies that did well you had to go above theme to get good scores.
Those that scored well: (40+) Raven Guard (Marines) Green Dragons (Marines) Dark Angels (Marines) 1000 Sons (CSM) Violators (CSM) Evil Suns (Orks) Blood Axes (Orks) Tyranids Tau
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Post by dragons3 on Oct 17, 2006 19:16:35 GMT -5
My take on Comp Scoring is different, I have no experience on judging Comp. one army to another. 3 things would help me: 1) What were the contributors positive & negative that gave me my Comp. Score at this GT. 2) Apples to apples, compare my Tyranid score with C4's Tyranid Comp. Score. 3) What type of Tyranid list would give me a Comp. Score of between 40 & 46 points. I'd rather be "RIPPED" on this topic and learn something, so I can make changes in the future. Don't worry I'm a "BIG OLD DRAGON" I can take it! This all would be helpful, thanks, CIAO!
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Post by jay on Oct 17, 2006 20:39:08 GMT -5
Ok, Well we don't want to go each person army list with out your approval. If we have your approval, then we will expain why we give each person what they got.
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Iron Warrior
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Post by Iron Warrior on Oct 17, 2006 21:00:47 GMT -5
You have my approval to use my list if you want to.
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Post by dragons3 on Oct 17, 2006 21:09:03 GMT -5
You have my approval, I thought it would be easier going through my Tyranid list as an example. I should have worded things a bit different. And most important thing here is, I'm going to accept what ever you say and apply it to the next event. Besides you know "DRAGON" won't get upset,"ABUSE IS MY LIFE."
Take care, CIAO!
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