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Post by shilekjalan on Dec 20, 2009 19:33:15 GMT -5
The Carnosaur list is really an outlier...It should be ranked near the top of the lists I posted power-wise. a Carnosaur no way should be worth a -6 penalty (-3 for Carnosaur, -1 for Mounted character, and -2 for 10% character points for the Carnosaur). The Carnosaur is slow, non-flying, makes it so that your general can be picked out by shooting and you can't see over other units. Not to mention that you feed it a cheap redirector, and it's now frenzied. Taking a Carnosaur could cost you a game easily. A lord on a cold one is much scarier not to mention you have around 200 points to get other stuff with. I definitely think the WPS does a much better job than yours in ranking the power level of the armies. If empire blocks get a bonus, Chaos Warriors should get a bonus, as equal points in Empire blocks will beat a Warrior block (And you're the one that proved that to me). Manbane shouldn't be a -4. It's only nasty with Rune of Khaine or rending stars. (The combination should be heavily penalized). By itself, it's basically a strength 6 mundane weapon at best. Usually it's strength 5. Give a hero a halberd and he's as good in most cases. Some other things that should be penalized that aren't on your list: Skaven Giant rats (See also WoC dogs) Dwarf Strength 7 Bolt throwers Dwarf re-roll scatter on Stone throwers (Those are just dirty) Warbanner for Dwarfs Greetings, Carnosaurs score major points just for being so awesome looking though! Courage and Honour
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Post by shilekjalan on Dec 20, 2009 19:34:27 GMT -5
Greetings,
Boldo, what is going to be the breakdown in points for the tournament? How many points for winning each game? Same as last time? Still bonus points? How many points for painting? Are you going to have a pop quizz or anything of that sort?
Thank you for having this tournament by the way.
Courage and Honour Ave Imperator
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boldo
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Post by boldo on Dec 22, 2009 12:40:26 GMT -5
I usually do 60 pts for battle, 20 for painting, 20 for comp and 20 for sportsmanship. I am now thinking about doing a quizz but we have to see how much time I have to write one.
Boldo
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boldo
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Post by boldo on Dec 22, 2009 12:53:12 GMT -5
I have made a few minor revisions to the comp list so here is the new one:
Comp score Magic Count all bound items and powerstones as a power dice, any character that can cast a single bound spell counts as one dice if the average power level <6 and two dice if PL>5, Characters that can cast multiple bound spells count as the power level calculated above and then multiplied by the number of spells. Tomb Kings and Empire armies without wizards do not count the 2 free dice. Count all dispel scrolls as 1 dispel dice
Dice Penalty or bonus 0-4 +1 5 0 6 0 7 -1 8 -2 9 -3 10 -5 11+ -2 for each additional dice
Character Count assassins as Character. All mounts count as character points even if they count as something else and mounts which count as an additional character count for the total number of characters. No Lord +1 Special Character -2 Only 3 Characters +2 Only 2 Characters +3 Every full 5% of CP over 25% -1
Magic Items Count all magic items even if on units or champions. Also include all poisons, gifts, powers, or abilities which are not normal equipment or mount upgrades. Less than 3% total magic items +1 Every full 2% of total magic items over 5% -1
Standard bonus No rares +2 More than 25% core or 20% for HE +1 More than 35% core or 28% for HE +2 More than 50% core or 40% for HE +3 Banners<4 -2 Non magical banners <2 -3 Do not count upgraded units, magic banners, special character champions, or assassins as core.
Specific army lists: Dwarves Warrior or ranger unit with banner>2 +2 A slayer or Ironbreaker unit +1 Master Engineer +1 Deamon Slayer +2 More longbeard than warrior units -2 More longbeard, Ironbreakers, hammerers than warrior units -2 Each Warmachine after the second one -1 Each thunderer or quarreler unit >2 -1 Each gyrocopter -1 If you have more than 15 miner models -1 Anvil -4 Thorac -4 Master rune of Challenge -2 Master rune of snorri Redbeard or Valaya -1 Each rune of battle after the first -1 Rune of balance counts as 2 dispel dice, rune of spell breaking counts a a dispel scroll and rune of spell eating counts as 2 dispel scrolls.
Warriors of Chaos Maurader unit with banner and US14+ +1 Each forsaken Unit +1 Warshrine without a troll unit +1 Each Shaggot or Deamon Prince +1 All markable units with same mark +1 Each Chaos knight unit -1 Each spawn after first -1 Vilitch, Throgg, or Festus -2 Dragon -5 Each dog unit after 2 -1 Each chariot after 1st -1 Each marked Giant -2 Golden Eye of Tzeentch -1 Raptorous Banner or collar of Khorne with mark of Tzeentch -1 War banner, word of agony, or doom totem -2 Infernal puppet or black tongue -2
High Elf Speaman unit with banner >2 +2 Each silver helm unit +1 Ellyerion Reavers +1 Shadow warriors +1 More special infantry units than core units -1 Griffin -2 Sun dragon -3 Moon dragon -4 Star dragon -6 Each Dragpn Prince unit after 1 -1 Each eagle, RBT, or chariot after the first -1 Teclis -5 Tyrion -2 Caradyran -1 Seer staff or skeinslivert or star lance -1 Dragon armor or armor of caledor on dragon -2 Battle banner -4 Annulian crystal counts as 2 dispel dice, sigil of asuryan counts as a dispel scroll, and book of Hoeth counts as 2 power dice.
Daemons of Chaos Army of only one god +1 More than 2 core units with banners +1 Deamon Prince +3 Battle Standard -1 Greater Deamon -3 The greater deamon flies -1 Each character on juggernaught -2 Each chariot -1 Each flesh hound unit after the first -2 Each flamer model after 3 -2 Each fury unit after the first -1 Epidemius, Blue Scribe -2 Ku’gath the plague father, or Skarbrand -3 Kairos -4 Banner of Esctasy or Icon of endless war -1 Skull Totem or Icon of Sorcery -1 Standard of seeping decay -1 Dark Insanity or Trapping of Nurgle -2 Slime Trail or Master of Sorcery -2 Obsidian armor or Banner of Unholy Victory-2 Siren Standard or Immortal Fury -3 Firestorm Blade, Siren Song, or Tz will -3 Twin Heads or Great Icon of despair -4 Great standard of sundering counts as 4 dispel dice, Spell breaker counts as a dispel scroll and Spell destroyer counts as 2 dispell scrolls.
Dark Elf No Warmachines or cauldrons +1 2+ warrior units with banner not crossbow +2 Two of corsair, witch elf, or Executioner unit+1 A Dark Rider unit not fast cav +1 Each Hydra -3 Dragon -5 Manticore -2 Each harpy unit after 2nd -1 Each fast cav after 2nd -1 Morathi or Lokhir Fellheart -3 Each shade unit with weapon upgrade -1 Each assassin or cauldron of blood after 1st -3 Armor of Darkness or war banner -1 Standard of slaughteer or Hydra banner -1 Armor of Eternal servitude -1 Rune of Khaine or Standard of Hag Grief -2 Black staff or touch of death -2 Rending stars, manbane, of Pendant of Khaeleth -4 Ring of Hotek counts as 2 dispel dice, sacrifical dagger counts as 3 power dice.
Lizardmen No Lord +1 Skink Chief on foot +1 2+ ranked skink unit >us14 with Std +2 Each Kroxigor unit without skinks +1 Each slann discipline after 1st -2 Carnasaurus -2 Each mounted Saurus Character -1 Each skink skirmishing unit after 2nd -1 Each terradon unit after 1st -3 Each stegadon -1 Each ancient stegadon -2 Each character mounted on a stegadon -1 Each character mounted on ancient stegadon -2 Each salamander model -1 War banner or Burning blade of Chotec -1 Stegadon warspear, or war drums of xahatec -2 Totem of Prophecy or bane head -2 Diadem of power counts as a dispel dice, cube of darkness counts as a dispel scroll, focus of rumination counts as 3 power dice, Becalming cognition counts as 2 dispel dice, cube of darkness counts as 1 dispel dice.
Vampire Counts 2+ skeleton or Zombie unit>19 with non-magical banner +1 2+ ghoul unit >19 +1 A bat swarm or spirit host unit +1 Wight king not BSB +1 No Lord +2 Konrad +2 Each fast cav after 2nd -2 Zombie dragon -5 Abyssal terror -2 Each balefire -2 Each black knight unit -1 Each fell bat unit after 1st -1 Each wraith of Banshee model -1 Each varghulf -2 Count Manfred -5 Vlad von Cartien -2 Infinite hatred or walking death -1 War banner and each master ability -1 Book of Arkhan or Banner of Dead Legion -2 Helm of commandment on hero -2 Helm of commandment on Lord -4 Forbidden Lore or Talisman of Lycini -2 Both Infinite hatred and red fury -4 Banner of dead legion on a cav unit -4 Both red fury and dreadlance -5 Drakenhof banner -5 Skullstaff counts as two power dice, black periapth counts as one power dice and one dispel dice.
Orc and Goblins 2+ Orc units with banner, +1 2+ Goblin unit with banner +2 2+ Night goblin unit with banner +1 Each wolf rider unit not fast cav +1 Wyvern -3 Each fast cav after 3rd -1 Each warmachine after 3rd -2 Second giant -3 Gorbad Ironclaws -2 Each fanatic >6 -1 Each chariot after 2nd -1 Noggs banner of butchery or war banner -1 Staff of sneaky stealing counts as 2 dispel dice, Mork’s spirit- totem counts as 2 dispel dice.
Empire 2+ core infantry unit >19 with banner +2 Knight unit not inner circle with banner +1 Engineer +1 A unit with 2 detachments +1 Each Pigeon bomb modeled up +5 Griffin -2 Dragon -5 War Altar -3 Each steam tank -3 Karl Franz -3 Ludwig Schwarzhelm -2 Each cav unit after 3rd -1 Each outrider unit after 1st -1 Each Flagellant unit after the 1st -2 Each cannon after 2nd -2 War banner -1 Aldreds casket of sorcery -2 Van Hortsman speculum -3 Seal of destruction counts as 2 dispel scrolls and rod of power counts as 2 power dice.
Ogre Kingdom 2+ Ogre bull unit >3 with banner +2 A gnoblar unit +1 Each Hunter +1 Slave Giant +1 No Lord +1 Each scraplauncher after 1st -2 Each gorger -1 Each leadbelcher model after 4 -1 Each maneater model after 4th -1 Skullmantle -1 Tenderiser -2
Bretonnia 2+ man at arms unit with banner +2 2+ non skirmishing bowmen unit +1 2+ knight unit without magic banner +1 Grail Reliquarae +1 A character on foot +1 Each knight of the realm unit after 3rd -2 Each pegasus knight model >3 -2 Hippogriff -2 Tress of Isoulde -1 War banner -2 Banner of the Lady -3 Virtue of duty, discipline, or confidence -1 Silver mirror counts as a dispel scroll and Sacrament of the lady counts as 2 power dice.
Wood Elf Only forest spirits in the army +1 2+ glade guard unit with banner +2 A eternal guard unit with nonmagical banner +1 Each tree Kin unit +1 Each treeman -3 Green dragon -6 Durthu or Naestra -5 Orion or Drycha -2 Each wild rider unit after 1st -2 Each skirmishing unit after 3rd -2 Each fast cav unit after 2nd -2 War banner -1 Annoyance of netlings -2 Hail of doom arrows -3 Staff of wylm elm counts as 1 dispel dice, each treeman counts as 1 power dice, each treeman ancient counts as 2 power dice.
Tomb Kings 2+ Skeleton Unit >19 with banner +1 A skeleton horse unit +2 Icon Bearer +1 No Lord +2 Each it came from below unit after 2nd -3 Each chariot unit after 1st -2 Each carrion after 1st -2 Each catapult with skull of Foe upgrade -2 Second bone giant -2 Cloak of Dune Crown of kings or flail of skulls-1 War banner or standard of sands -1 Icon of Rakaph or Destroyer of eternities -2 Casket of souls counts as 2 power dice, Hieratic jar counts as 2 power dice, and brooch of the great desert counts as a dispel scroll.
Skavan 3+ Clanrat units with banner +2 A Stormvermin unit w/o magic banner +1 Assassin +1 Poison Wind globidiers +1 A rat ogre unit >2 rat ogres +1 Lord on a mount -2 Each plague furnace after 1at -2 Each plague monk unit after 1st -2 Each plague censer bearer after 1st -2 Each warplock Jezzail unit after 1st -2 Each hellpit abomination -4 Each Doomwheel -2 Warp scroll, stormbanner, or warpstone stars -1 Grand banner of clan superiority -2 Doomrocket -4 Warp-energy condenser counts as 1 power dice, every other warpstone token counts as a power dice.
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Post by skyth on Dec 22, 2009 16:00:47 GMT -5
I usually do 60 pts for battle, 20 for painting, 20 for comp and 20 for sportsmanship. I am now thinking about doing a quizz but we have to see how much time I have to write one. Boldo Battle is actually 45 and comp is at least a 40 point swing possible.
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Post by skyth on Dec 22, 2009 16:46:00 GMT -5
I have made a few minor revisions to the comp list so here is the new one: I'll just go over the weirdness for the armies I know... Why the difference for HE? Big'uns and Longbeards (Which I assume is what you mean by upgraded units) are generally considered less powerful for thier points than the normal unit...So you are penalizing a weaker option here. Again, double penalizing taking less efficient units. Each one should be penazlied, and it should be the same penalty for each army...Same points and same effect. Also, where is the penalty for the Rune of Accuracy (re-roll scatter) on Grudge throwers...That combination is just broken. Not sure why having a troll unit and Warshrine is a combo. Valkia (Can re-roll on the table) I can see as Trolls can get a lot of rolls...But Warshrine? Doesn't make any sense. Not quite deserving of that much of a hit. Especially since you're already taking a 2 points hit for taking a rare. The only one that's even remotely deserving of a penalty is the Mark of Slaanesh...But in my experience, unless you're fighting a bad player giants die before they see combat. Warbanner should be the same penalty for every army. Black tongue by itself shouldn't be penalized...It's already a 1 point penalty just for taking magic items. The combination of puppet with black tongue is, however, deserving of a higher penalty. Also, where is the bonus for Warriors? Empire infantry is given a bonus but the equivalent points in Empire infantry will defeat a block of Chaos Warriors. If one should get a bonus, both should get a bonus. An equal point cost of warriors will beat a unit of corsairs with 2 hand weapons. However, the more powerful choice gets the higher bonus. Also, where is the bonus for taking 1 unit of Corsairs and 1 unit of Warriors? It's a balanced choice (And thus should be better comp) but is worse comp? Also, no requirement for a banner for the corsairs/WE/Executioners for the bonus? I fear Morathai more than Lokhir, but I can build a more powerful Sorceress (Level 4 on pegasus with access to 5 shadow spells instead of only Dark spells) for less points. Lokhir is very fragile for his points and not very strong offensively...I can build a more effective (terror-causing) character for less points. Neither is worthy of a 5 point penalty. Manbane by itself does not deserve a 4.75 point penalty. Against quite a few things, it make the assassin less effective (T2/3). Having a possible strength 6 (Only against a few things) is useful, but not an almost 5 point penalty useful...It's basically the same as giving a character a Halberd. What is nasty (And deserving of a severe penalty) is the Manbane+Rending Stars combo. Not counting DE casters as having an inherent power bonus? Each For each dicipline, you are taking a 1 point penalty for magic items and a .5 point penalty for character points. The only ones really deserving of a higher penalty are the ones that are already being penalzied as giving bonus power/dispel dice. Still a 5 point penalty for a Carnosaur...(-2, mounted saurus, -2 character points). I take a Carnosaur if I want to play a fun list. If I want a powerful list, I'll take an old blood on a Cold One or on foot. In most cases, those are more useful and more survivable. For taking a unit of 2 Salamanders, you are penalized the same as taking 4 units of Chaos Knights or 3 units of Flesh Hounds. This is quite out of line for how fragile (and expensive) the units are. War drums are only really nasty when there's a Steg on the table. What about one of each unit? For how much of a beast Gorbad is, he deserves a higher penalty. Two units with 1 detachment is equivalent to one with 2 detachments. Same power should be the same comp score. Outriders are about as equivalent in offensive power as a unit of handgunners, but more fragile. You get a bonus for Handgunners, but a penalty for Outriders...Doesn't make sense. Especially when Pistoliers are more effective than Outriders. [/quote] No penalty for Handgunners/Crossbowmen? No penalty for giant rats? If WoC dogs have penalties, giant rats should have the same (They are equivalent in use)
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Post by shilekjalan on Dec 22, 2009 17:08:48 GMT -5
Greetings,
By the way, the same ability can mean different things for different armies. It depends on what sort of units an army has available. For example, war banner. War banner can be way worse in the hands of some armies then it can in others. It depends on many different factors such as: 1) are there other better items to take instead, 2) does it use up points that should not be spent, 3) does it make the character points too high and so on and so on.
Just some food for thought, this is. ;D
Courage and Honour, Ave Imperator
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Post by deraj on Dec 23, 2009 23:33:52 GMT -5
This may be a dumb question, but do your dice pool count toward the dice penalty/bonus?
Also... how many points is this supposed to be for? It seems that it would work different below 2000 or even about the 2000 line.
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boldo
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Post by boldo on Dec 31, 2009 10:52:51 GMT -5
This was designed for a 2000 or so point army. For dice you calculate the number of casting dice and get a modifier and then do the dispel dice and get another modifier. These are then added to the rest of the score. From the Christmas tournament it seems there needs to be some changes but it also seems scores in the single digits are not uncommon.
Boldo
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Post by deraj on Jan 4, 2010 15:12:33 GMT -5
I finally figured out why I dislike the comp scoring so much. It's almost telling people exactly how they should build their list. I understand using comp scoring to limit things that are broken, like Daemon princes or certain special characters, but a lot of things just seem.... waaay over the top.
It really hit me when I looked at ogres. Really? Is having gorgers, or a 5th leadbelcher so if one dies, they don't immediately take a panic check going to put them up on par with demons?
I think, since I've got nothing better to do after work, and really dislike comp scoring this in depth, I may do as skyth did and pick apart the armies I know.
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Post by jay on Jan 7, 2010 20:19:20 GMT -5
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Post by deraj on Jan 8, 2010 12:01:55 GMT -5
I was talking to a friend of mine about the comp system, and he lives in australia. There your opponents score you, rather than a math based comp score. Surprisingly, he said it often works out far better.
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Post by skyth on Jan 8, 2010 13:53:10 GMT -5
I am really not a fan of subjective comp, and opponent scored comp is by far the worst method of comp scoring. Nothing like giving the person who you just beat the power to then take revenge on you...
Everyone has biases as to what they want to see when they play...While I don't like Boldo's system (As it is based more on playing right than the actual power of the list), at least his is open and honest about what he wants to see and thus is better than any subjective system out there. There have also been several examples of people taking the same list to a tournament and getting wildly varying comp scores. This won't happen under a non-subjective checklist system. If people find ways around the system, then change the system...Any good checklist system is constantly evolving.
The Crossroads system had a couple glaring mistakes in it, one of which hurt everyone by shifting all the other scores in the tournament. I'm speaking of a massive points denial army that a lot of people would be unable to beat without massive luck getting a perfect comp score and thus lowering the comp scores of the rest of the softer lists that were out there.
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boldo
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Post by boldo on Jan 8, 2010 15:29:11 GMT -5
Not all armies are created equal and not all army books are equal. The problem is that winning is a combination of your play skill, army strength and dice rolls. Now in the perfect tournament each player would play 2 games each round. First they would play with their army and then they would switch with their opponent and play their opponent's army against their army. The battle results of both games would be added together to get the results for the round. Now this would make for a very long tournament. To shorten this a score is given to try to give armies a balancing number. This number should roughly rank the armies and give a score like a golf handicap to the softer armies. How to do this is the problem. Opponent scoring is an easy way to do this but suffers from player bias, team bias towards other players or teams, and result bias. Judged ranking seems like a good idea but is a nightmare for the judge who then has to deal with a slew of complaints after the tournament and has the appearance of bias to those that did not win. Using more judges does not solve this but does allow lots of player judging problems to creep up. Checklists are hard to make and can be gamed by players who play around enough with the system. Further they are open to a lot of criticism about bias but they are known in advance. As comp is so hard why do we bother? The problem with the game is that armies are not balanced. So the best and easiest armies are the lots of shooting, big magic, and flying monsters preferably with a breath weapon. Play these as points denial risking nothing and grinding out the opponent and you win a lot games. How fun is a tournament to many players when this (or whatever the current uber army is) to play over and over. Further comp is encouraging to the occasional player who can play what ever they want but face some softer armies and get some wins. I so understand people dislike comp but what is your solutions?
Boldo
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Post by chumbalaya on Jan 8, 2010 19:46:51 GMT -5
The easiest way is to not do it.
If people never see big monsters, super magic, crazy shooting, and other sorts of extreme armies, they won't have any experience fighting them and will not know how to beat them. If anything goes, then people will learn how to stop the one-dimensional rock-paper-scissors armies. There can be a bit of a learning curve against some of the crazier things, especially if you have an outdated army, but that's what gaming during the week is for.
Get familiar with everything and build your balanced force that can take all comers. No comp means no subjective bs, no complicated mathematical models, and no hamfisted attempts to address perceived imbalances that just muck it up even more.
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