Missions where random things die are bad

[Brinan The Barbarian]

if you want to play a tournament based on the rules in the book, fine with me. Or, you could save fifty dollars and just play 5 pick up games. Be my guest. I used that list purely as an example btw

[Iron Warrior]

Horst it has become quite clear you know next to nothing about Compful/Fluffy lists.

Brians list is compful because of the following:

-Black Legion incorperates all Legions into its ranks.
-Sacred numbers for the Dark Gods followers.
-Did not spam weapons/units or transports.
-Terminators deepstriking into combat is Black Legions prefered tactic.
-Did not pick choices becuase they are underpriced/overpowered.
-Did not take All "good" stuff
-Did not min/max squads

Horst I will explain the following)

It wouldn't compromise your theme to give terminators combi-meltas and power weapons, would it?

No it would not, but playing along with theme of the Black legion, or fluff, Thier prefered tactic is to Deepstrike into assualt and wreak havoc where they can. A Terminator assualt Squad is idea for this. He did not take the underpriced 5 point combi-meltas instead or leave them bear bones with thier power weapons. He had to pay for those lighting claws. Bonus points here.

would it REALLY compromise your theme to use a 6 man squad of noise marines (still sacred)...

No it would not. But bonus points are given becuase he didnt min max the squad. Aside from that the large squad gives him more firepower which the list lacks in other places.

would it REALLY compromise your theme to not use the 16 man squad of chaos marines that do nothing because you chose to give them no special weapons?

thsi squad wont do nothing. More often then I care to admit MANY people over see the usefulness of the Bolter, CCW and Bolt Pistol. It is over shadowed by Powerfists and Melta/plasma guns. This unit is obviously used for counter assualt and fire support against infantry as well as taking objectives. I Doubt is sits on the table and does "nothing". Learn to use your units to your advantage.

Two points I would like to touch upon though.

I would ding you for a Special Character and The comp could be improved further if you dipped into your Heavy Support or Fast Attack choices. But over all its good comp.

[hyv3mynd]

Jul 13, 2010 14:45:32 GMT -5 Horst said:

If daBoyz are a group of players who like to bring lists that they make that are intentionally bad, rather than lists that are both fluffy AND good, i'm glad to not be among your ranks. I was under the impression the culture for warhammer around rochester was that we 1) didn't use special characters, and 2) brought lists that were both adherent to written GW fluff, AND powerful. The two aren't mutually exclusive, though many people seem to think they are.

I think Steve is hitting the nail on the head here, except I have yet to see a member of "Daboyz" consistently play a list that #1 doesn't have special characters, #2 intentionally bad, or #3 fluffy.

Again, I'm new to the community, but here are my experiences based on nights/tournaments I attended.

Doug - 2nd place at MG with 2 Nurgle prines + wings, 2 possessed vindicators, all plague marinesc. Casual night with a 40 terminator list...

Smitty - Mechdar w/ Eldrad, 2 wave serpents, 2 DA units, fire prism, nightspinner, falcon, 2 GJB units, scorpions.

Catachan Colonel - 300+ pt force commander + honor guard DS (hammers, shields, banner, relic blades, librarian), 5 man scout squad with Telion

I've even seen Courtney throw down 10 DE raiders or Eldar with 3 Wraithlords.

Then these people turn around and ream out the new guys for hard/WAAC/powergamer lists, while insulting them personally. From what I've seen, a lot of "Daboyz" are grumpy old hipocrits. (except Jay, he's a cool dude and norton has been nice to me). Until "Daboyz" start practicing what they preach, I think everyone should lay off the personal insults and "holier than thou" comp/fluff theory.

Like I said, this is from the view of someone only in the gaming community for 4 months.

[Horst]

I didn't say his list wasn't compy/fluff.

I said it was a bad list from a gameplay perspective.

He could do much to improve its playability without sacrificing its overall theme / comp.... and your right, he's taking nothing but 5 troop choices. how is THAT balanced? 0 fast, 0 heavy? please.

ideal comp lists, imo, take -

something from every force org slot
do not spam the same unit (if they are limited in choice, take different weapons / sizes)
do not take special characters.
are built to a central theme and are not a smattering of random units.

boom. my definition of comp.

[chumbalaya]

This whole "comp = intentionally handicapping yourself" thing is just so strange. What's worse is the holier than thou attitude behind it. Seriously folks, it's just a game.

[Horst]

doug -

Had a nice little "chat" with you tonight (mainly consisting of you cursing at me, while I try to talk to you reasonably, until which you say "i'm done." and storm off. Bravo.

1) I don't help run events, your right. If it means I'd have to work with, talk to, or in general be near you or people like you, i'd rather be sodemized with a 12' pole.

2) I posted anonymously under a different forum about a BS judge calling. I then, the SAME NIGHT, requested it be locked, because I realized after thinking about it that one call is not indicative of the entire group, and didn't want to create a bad name for us. When you found out about this, you of course get mad at me for talking about it. Your like the catholic church, you know that? Your mad at the little boy for telling on the priest who molested him, rather than the source of the problem. Maybe we should evaluate our system of judging? No, of course not.

3) Calling into question the list I brought to the tournament was pretty low as well. Saying I bring overpowered marine lists for my "made up" chapter... really Doug. I'd thought, that after being so experienced at this game, you'd have a little more sense than this. I basically brought the same list I brought to DaBoyz GT 2009, with a vindicator swapped for a predator. I scored a 35 on comp last year. There were 7 people at the tournament, out of 66, with higher comp scores than me. Please be informed before you insult my choice of army.

I like to think of myself as reasonable... you have proven you are not. Remember, if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all. Of course, if you followed this, you would never talk again, but please, in the future, try to maintain a civil tounge. It shouldn't be too hard.

edit- also, now that I know how much posting on other forums irritates you, rest assured that if judge bias plays a part in docking points from any further tournaments I attend, I will be sure to make posts on other forums. I will not lie, I will not exaggerate, I'll simply post the truth. Apparently the truth is bad for DaBoyz image. Maybe you should look into fixing that then.

[honsou]

yea this whole superiority complex thing is rediculous, it's like when they bashed malice's eldar list, i guarantee half of you wouldn't know what to do with it.
Steve's mech marines aren't broken, they're solid, like space marines should be, i think the only real cheesy things in the space marine codex are: Vulkan, and th'ss terminators..
The game has changed, theyve layed off comp to separate tournament environments from friendly gaming environments
No matter what background you're from a tournament it seems in anything but warhammer is a competitive environment, so people bring their best to win..but it's a hobby so let's bring that aspect into it, and the fact that the books are inbalanced ok so lets do things to even the field, not return things to 3rd ed..
a lot of ppl here calling cheese: umm dont some of you use vulkan, doom, th/ss termies, dual vindis, mech guard etc etc...
Get over yourselves and move on it's a game

[Iron Warrior]

Its as simple as this, for all of you.

We play how we like, we are not forcing it upon you. But if you dont like it, dont show up. Id rather not hear all your complaing about comp being a handicap or whatever bull crap your spewing now. We heard you the first time you vomited it from your mouth. Seriously Im sick of hearing it. Comp will be used. Get over YOURSELF and move on...all of you. Unless of course....and brace yourself...you run a d**n tournement yourself!

[honsou]

this nerd-raging is rediculous: point counterpoint, arrogant retort, point, someone strikes a chord again, another ignorant retort, filled with whining, anyone go to bars anymore? im telling you JD Oxfords wednesday night, $4 pitchers, and unlike warhammer arguments, there are girls involved ......trolling...trollin..trolling..its an art form

[MajorSoB]

Jul 13, 2010 15:36:07 GMT -5 @hyv3mynd said:

I think Steve is hitting the nail on the head here, except I have yet to see a member of "Daboyz" consistently play a list that #1 doesn't have special characters, #2 intentionally bad, or #3 fluffy.

Again, I'm new to the community, but here are my experiences based on nights/tournaments I attended.

Doug - 2nd place at MG with 2 Nurgle prines + wings, 2 possessed vindicators, all plague marinesc. Casual night with a 40 terminator list...

Smitty - Mechdar w/ Eldrad, 2 wave serpents, 2 DA units, fire prism, nightspinner, falcon, 2 GJB units, scorpions.

Catachan Colonel - 300+ pt force commander + honor guard DS (hammers, shields, banner, relic blades, librarian), 5 man scout squad with Telion

I've even seen Courtney throw down 10 DE raiders or Eldar with 3 Wraithlords.

Then these people turn around and ream out the new guys for hard/WAAC/powergamer lists, while insulting them personally. From what I've seen, a lot of "Daboyz" are grumpy old hipocrits. (except Jay, he's a cool dude and norton has been nice to me). Until "Daboyz" start practicing what they preach, I think everyone should lay off the personal insults and "holier than thou" comp/fluff theory.

Like I said, this is from the view of someone only in the gaming community for 4 months.

Refresh my memory, who the hell are you?

If you are so new to the community why not sit back and try to learn before drawing conclusions with things that you perceive as fact. Let's start with army builds...

My armies- Yes you finally got it correct I did play the CSM list you described but I did it as an experiment and to point out flaws in the system. Really I own nastier stuff but you have never seen me play it. Why are you so fixated on that list and that I took second? Also you saw me take a mediocre Deathwing army ( pure, no dreadnaughts or landraiders! ) against Terry to help him gear up for a tourney. I lost that night BTFW! ( ...but I had fun and so did Terry!) That army that you speak of is a collection of all old termy models painted by James Arnold for fun. It doesn't play well but is fun. Do you know what other armies I own and play? Here is a clue...Major SOB....you guessed it Sisters of Battle. Is that another power army? If you were there tonight that was what I had with me, no mystics attached , no guard just sisters, and before you ask it didnt have Immolator spam or anything else like that. Were you at Millennium the night I played six penitent engines, guess not! One of the reasons Skyth has suck disdain for me is because I tabled him with my mediocre sisters list and some people think this game is all about winning. ( Its not! ) I also own Space Marines of the Iron Hands chapter, and I have played them compete with terminator sergeants and dreadnaughts during last edition when they sucked. I haven't broken them out in this edition since they have improved, but it's you call, can I do that or would that be power gaming? I own 30+ Legion of the d**ned models that I can't wait to paint and start playing. I bought them cause they are cool and fluffy, but again it's your call should I sell them cause you think they are OTT?

Smitty's army- He plays what he likes and what reflects the Eldar fluff written in the codex. While it is true he plays the models that you have spoken of, I have yet to see him play the jetbike Seer Council list or foot Eldar that cleaned up at Adepticon. So if his lists are too hard what would you have him play and why would you say he hasn't finished on top with his "hard" lists yet?

Tommy- Yep, I have played against his "squad of doom", most of us have. It's alot of points that aren't particularly good. Sure they wreck one unit but that's about it. If you ask me real nicely I will tell you how to beat it! Tommy also owns so pretty craptastic armies too. He has a radical Deamon Hunters list, (act suprized!) Catachans!, Generic CSMs, as well as his standby Tau. He plays all these armies as well as the Smurfs you are complaining about. ( I can believe someone complained about Ultras??)

Courtney- You think a DE raider army under the current rules is broken? WTF? Yes he has played an Iyanden themed Eldar army that fully reflects that craftworld's fluff, but mostly what Chris plays is his "one of everything" style lists. I have watched him play units like Vibro Cannons, etc because he likes Eldar. Again Chris doesn't own the jetbike army because he doesn't think they are fun or fair. He had his "broken" Necrons out tonight featuring a wide variety of bad units and only one monolith, no C'Tans! He owns a Dark Angels army which he plays 1/3 Deathwing, 1/3 DA, and 1/3 Ravenwing. Is this too OOT for you? He also plays Nids too again featuring one of everything. He is currently working on a "winged" themed list, not because they are good but because they will be unique.

Let's go on to some other players....

Professer Paul- He has played his Grey Knight list since I have know him. Paul is one of the original DaBoyz members and plays what appeals to him. Winning isn't usually in the cards for Deamon Hunters, so why does he play them?

Ron- Yes he owns some nasty armies ( 4th Edition Iron Warriors for example), but he also owns a mediocre guard list, no psykers, no valkeries, etc that he had out tonight. Did you happen to see that?

Orville- Where to start? He has played Space Wolves forever, not just now but for the past several years when they did nothing but lose. He also has tried his hand at losing with Tau, and Guard under the last codex as well. One of the last times I saw him play his Space Wolves army he has a huge OTT pack of Ferisian wolves in it. I think he lost that night but strangely he had fun? How did that happen?

Do I need to go on??

Yes you have seen some hard list but if you open your eyes you will also find some compy, fair and fun lists being played too? Before you throw another rock at one of us, please tell me exactly what are you playing and what do you want to get out of this hobby? Is your list WAAC or is it compy/fluffy? Ask yourself one question....why do you play this game? Is it all about the win to you, cause if that is the only reason you can come up with you are truly lost. This hobby has nothing to do with winning or losing. The best thing about this hobby is the people and the friendships you can make. If this sounded preachy to you then I am sorry but this is the way it is. Moving plastic and metal toys around a table is a fun way to spend time with your friends. Winning games and tournaments should never be the reason for playing. That is not an insult but a slice of truth you can take with you.

Just my opinion...

[MajorSoB]

Jul 13, 2010 23:51:49 GMT -5 honsou said:

JD Oxfords wednesday night, $4 pitchers, and unlike warhammer arguments, there are girls involved ......trolling...trollin..trolling..its an art form

Sweet! Since I am at work could you drop off some to me? Beer, whatever's cold, and girls, whoever's drunk! PM me for my address!

[Horst]

At this point i'd like to state for the record I have no problem with comp and prefer comp tournaments to non-comp, to stop marine lists such as the razorback / longfang spacewolves spam army of missile doom.

[hyv3mynd]

The point I was trying to make is representative of impression made on me by a few vocal members.

To answer your final question, the lists I play at comp tournamens are compy/fluffy. I play a hard list for 'Ardboyz and upon request as I brought to play Steve last night. I'm the bald guy with metallic green Tyranids. Some people say my list is "Ard" because of only one reason. I use a Tyrant with several biomorphs and 3 tyrant guard. In tournaments, I have used troop heavy lists without duplicate codex selections with selections from all 5 FO categories.

Here is some of my fluff: I play "Hive Fleet Colossus" or at least a remaining splinter of it as it was whiped out by a Black Templar crusade fleet. If you want fluff for my "Ard" unit, here are some excerpts from the codex. "All Hive Tyrants are massively powerful creatures... Every part of a Hive Tyrant's body is perfectly created to maim and kill... Hive Tyrants are vital to the Tyranid onslaught... Tyrant Guard are the ultimate bodyguards; it is the entire purpose of heir creation." So my splinter fleet is a slowly growing swarm founded on a survivng Hive Ship from Fleet Colossus which fell to a rainforest deathworld not too dissimilar to Catachan. Feeding off the the only threat to the recovering Hive Ship, the giant insects of the jungle, the Tyranids began adapting to their environment again, donning an appearance similar to the insects they were feeding on. To protect their sole surviving Tyrant, the Norn Queen embedded in the Hive Ship spawned Tyrant Guard. I spend about 8 hours painting each MC and 1-2 hours per infantry. My appearance is above average and I've spent many days on my fully magnetized rainforest display board. I embrace every single aspect of the hobby and bring whatever list is appropriate for the game or tournament.

What I wanted to get out of the hobby was find a group to fit in with that I could have fun with, which I largely have when it comes down to throwing down models and dice.

However, when I fall back to the forum to line up future matches and find out about tournaments, I find the mudslinging and personal insults over the top. I guess I'm not one of "DaBoyz" as Brinan stated and Smitty implied as the "new guys jus don't get it". That's fine, but I still value the forum as a resource for linking up with other like minded players and finding out about other tournaments.

The reasons I point out the discrepancies and apparent hipocracy follow a timeline. Let me demonstrate. May tourney you took 2nd with IMO, the second hardest list next to Jay's. Yes, it was all Nurgle fluff, but IMO it was WAAC. Then, you make this comment to Chumbalaya about the same tournament. "..and now on to Chumby. My advice, learn to paint and learn to build comp friendly list. Reason- Even with a ballz nasty list you still cant win a game consistently, so maybe just maybe. you should learn how to play in a tournament like this so you can at least get 21 out of 45 points before losing all three of your games. Losing with power build, net list just isnt my cup of tea, but I dont begrudge anyone who cant win with an OTT list either! "

Then, Smitty makes this comment about this month's tourney: "This doesn't mean make your own fluff based a beat stick. AND just because you don't have special characters or duplicates or spam a list doesn't mean you are a COMP LIST. I hate to say it but the newer players just don't get it. Running around saying you have comp lists but all you really have is slightly modified Ard boyz list." I assume this was directed at me because I always assumed that "comp" meant troop heavy, no dupes, no special characters. Yet Smitty's tourney list had 2x DA, 2x Wave Serpents, 2x GJB's, and Eldrad with a total of 5 tanks. Seems to me his list was much more of an modified Ard Boyz list.

You defended him (you also weren't at the tourney) saying he plays fluff. Well, according to the eldar codex, his all Ulthwe painted army lead by Eldrad should have been all or nearly all guardians since according to the codex, "Ulthwe lacks aspect warriors". With Scorpions and 2x Dire Avengers, his list asctually had more aspects than guardians. In that matter, it was not fluffy or compy.

Then, when people try to voice their opinions and argue their points, they are personally insulted. These have been namely Skyth, Chumbalaya, Malice, and Horst. If you read back on the commentary, almost all of the personal insults have come from "Original DaBoyz" and moderators.

So yes, I threw a stone using the word "Hypocrit". Above you have my evidence and my backing of the statement. My suggestions are if you need to call people stupid, whiners, female dogs, or any other interpretation of "thingy", do it in PM's. More of "DaBoyz" are doing damage to their image than helping it, and despite Jay's heroic efforts to keep things civil and focused on the GT, we're starting a viscious downward spiral that will tear our local hobby community apart.

[Iron Warrior]

This is getting quite sickening. Nearly every single post in the last 3-4 months has devolved into a comp argument largely due to the 4 people Hivemind mentioned above.

These have been namely Skyth, Chumbalaya, Malice, and Horst

Lets face some hard fact here. No name calling, not insults, just cold hard facts,

Your ideas of how the game should be played are in the minority of how we as a 40k gaming communtiy think the game should be played.

Skyth you have not Played a game of 40k in the new rule set.

Chumba you have yet to show up to a Daboyz tournament or GT.

Malice lives far away and only comes to the GT and will bring what he wants despite of comp.

Horst im not sure where you stand on comp as I have read your posts on other boards and they seem to condradict what you say here. You are very vocal but alot of it is in a negative light and seems to me bashing.

SoB is also Vocal, believes strongly in what Daboyz stands for and will defend his hometown, home team and his Boyz even though sometimes it may be harsh he is fiercely loyal, especially when it comes to bashing on Daboyz or TOs.

Travis is an awesome person. He takes time out to run tournaments for YOU the players. He goes out of his way and nearly bends over back wards to make sure there is terrain, tables, the air conditioning is on, he takes advice from his players o how to better improve comp and he gets little thanks in return and ontop of that he gets gripes from people who lost a tournament by meager points. This man is underappreicieated.

The rest of us....no two people are identical and will build lists identical to each other. Comp doesnt mean taking grossly crippled armies or only ineffective units. There are some among us that indulge in the power builds from time to time to play in Ard boyz or as Jay/Shuans army to go play in Europe (where there is no comp) representing the US there.

Tournaments will have some sort of comp system if ran by Daboyz unless otherwise stated like an Ard Boyz or other like style tournament.

We dont shun players or tournaments that dont use comp. We embrace the challange and go to them or play against them. Look at the Ard Boyz...Daboyz were there playing along side people who enjoy those types of tournaments. We didnt go about complaining about this army or that army on these or those forums. We played and did pretty good over all. (I placed 2nd, go me! ;D And 3 Daboyz won 1st-3rd in the sunday one. ) This should show you that we are capable of playing at all levels of the spectrum but we -choose- to play with comp becuase the games are more fun and friendlier to us.

We are not forcing this mindset upon anyone and no one is telling you that you must abide by it or be shunned forever. Everyone has thier playstyle, we have ours and like it.

Want to know what it is? Come out and play us, ask questions. I didnt know what this was the first time I played with the Older Daboyz. I took time out of my shcedule gamed with them, became one and now understand whats going on...here I am 13 years later still playing and having great games against great people. I mean last night, Wolflord, myself, Krusty and Ben played a fun 2 on 2 game. All compful neat armies. We were laughing our asses off having fun. Sorry Krusty my dice were hot! I coudnlt fail a save on guardsmen! LOL. But the point of the matter is -everyone- enjoyed the game which in the end should be the top priority for a -game- with plastic soldiers imho(as well as others).

[hyv3mynd]

Ron, I appreciate everything you said, but perceive some things differently.

"We dont shun players or tournaments that dont use comp."

"We are not forcing this mindset upon anyone and no one is telling you that you must abide by it or be shunned forever. "

I have a hard time reading Doug, Smitty, and Brinan's recent posts and interpereting them to be anything but "shunning". Things like "you guys just don't get it", "In conclusion, shut the F___ up!", "Thank you for your time. Now back to playing with your Barbies Chumby!", "If you don't like the way the GT is run, don't come".

IDK, maybe it's just me but I'd feel shunned or forced to abide if I were the target of those remarks.

Just for the record, I never took a shot at Travis. He's an awesome guy and one of a few who has made me feel welcome in 40k land. He has the best playspace and best tables in Rochester. He's level-headed, proactive, and can take feedback without getting personal in response.

Steve and I had a blast of a game last night too, practicing for his Nova Open which is non-comp. It was the biggest swing game I've ever played, losing 750pts of my army before even taking my second turn, then coming back to win.

Just as you ask others to remain open minded about DaBoyz mission statement and comp, keep in mind it's not a requirement to having fun in 40k.