Chaos Tactics

[pogysnacks]

I want to start fleshing out a tactics section for the new codicies as they come out, we generally playtest the new books with proxies in order to figure out their strengths and weaknesses versus the armies we play and/or in case we decide to play them..First of 6th wanna do Chaos, add some tidbits and constantly expand the thread to leave as a resource for the players playing the army, for those interested in the army, and for those looking for ways to exploit weaknesses and beat the army.
Anyone with anything to add please do, it would be great as a resource for the community, to share ideas, strategies and combos..as well as flesh out how to defeat them.

I played between friday and saturday 9 games with the new chaos and some things i learned:
Huron Blackheart is outstanding, use his ability to infiltrate killer units like berzerkers to position them to get into combat as fast as possible, or a unit like noise marines to get them close to devastate infantry with sonic weapons denying your opponent cover saves.
Huron allows you to get superior positioning with your rock solid infantry unts, which can lead to a quick first blood, and in the current meta where gunlines seem to be d**n near everywhere this can help disrupt your opponents stable fire lines. The downside is you cant rely on the ability wholeheartedly because it is based on a d3 role, so sometimes youll be able to get those 3 units in and wreak havoc, or you may get that 1 unit..still not bad because it opens up your tactical options a little more in an already versatile army and hell outflank a squad of oblits, nobody likes when those show up close enough to cave in a section of their army. Huron is also pretty solid, randomly generated power for the hamadrya every turn, high str attacks with either weapon, a built in heavy flamer, but the warlord trait is the main reason to take this guy..
The other character i played around with was Kharne the Betrayer, the swell guy that he is. This guy is what he was and then some, 2+ deny the witch, immunity to force weapons instant death, hatred...etche still hits on 2's and hits his own guys on 1's...
He is absolutely phenominal, but he does have to issue and accept challenges whenever possible like chaos/blood dragons fantasy style back in the day, which isn't bad because there arent many that will beat him in a challenge, and generally you will auto win with him in combat res..the drawbacks to him are pretty obvious, he will most likely not be stuck in combat with 7 str 7 attacks the turn he charges, challenge or not, so unless you have a beefy unit with him, he'll attract fire more than jihadist in the middle east...People know he's a monster, they will try their d**ndest to make sure he doesnt reach them, so unless hes in a transport he, and his unit will get shot to hell just as always, and literally the best way is to run him in a raider with his unit ram them forward and dump them into the mix, but this is a huge point sink, and chaos land raiders arent too great, and taking one takes away from the other fantastic heavy choices you can field..Dont expect him to slaughter Grey Knights..with all of his anti-force weapon goodness and prowess in combat, those I6 halberds will ruin his day, although in challenges he will more than likely destroy grey knight hq's and unit champs with the exception being Draigo, or Hammer toting Grey Knights that he somehow doesn't kill. Stick to crushing MEQ squads and hordes because yea he'll chew through them, especially in conjunction with berzerkers. I would not take this guy in a competetive army list if youre considering building a powerhouse list.

[pogysnacks]

Elite units i used included the following:
Plague Marines
Noise Marines
Chosen
Berzerkers

Plague Marines are in my honest opinion much better than before, a point more expensive than last edition i believe, but they come with a poison(4+) ccw now with all the goodies as before...fnp isnt going to reliably keep them from falling as much as before from small arms statistically but that doesn't detract from them..i ran 2 units of 7 with 2 plas a fist and veterans of the long war, which runs for about 230 pts and used them as scorers with a nurgle lord, and in conjunction with hurons ability, they turned out to be a beatstick in shooting withering away smurfs without much trouble, and were essentially linebreakers that didnt die...the only drawbacks to these guys is theyre expensive, and elite close combat units with high str attacks will kill them, use them mid to close range, and pressure your opponent because they are tough as nails, i personally wouldn't use them as objective sitters, because thats simply a waste of a high cost unit that can do a good amount of killing, and tarpitting if need be. Epidemus plus these guys and some plaguebearer sitting on objectives looks like it can be pretty devestating..also havnt tried typhus but using him as the nurgle lord to unlock these guys as troops is definitely encouraged, the guys a monster in his own right.
Berzerkers are awesome, i didnt take ap4 chainaxes because those look like a waste of points, anything with 4 armor isnt going to survive these guys anyway. They took a hit to their number of base attacks from 2 down to 1 but they still are one of the best assault units in 40k..the only trouble i had with them was getting them to combat, im not a fan of land raiders and they are very well the best way to deliver them, just too big of a point sink for me..and rhinos can be done too, just drive up and disembark, wall them off so theyre covered and assault next turn..i took 4 units of 20 zerks and just ran them at Guard, hell it was a fun game, and all of the units made the trip to combat, just with big casualties..and it didnt really bother me because it gave me more wounds to shield kharne, and i wanted to run all of my berzerker models..in a competetive environment they look like theyd make a solid hammer unit, it, but unless youre taking them with a MoK HQ that unlocks them, theyre just not worth it with the other
elite options that can fulfill the same role. I wouldn't take them outside of a fluff army, or fun games, because chosen and terminators can fulfill the close combat role better, with ranged versatility, and better wargear options overall. Taking them as troops is cool though, but it goes against the nature of the unit if youre going to sit units on objectives take csm, or cutists..as a linebreaker theyre ok, but also realize they will more than likely chew through units quickly and get shot up and counter charged, or just get killed through shooting, because to reidorate they will be left out to dry after their initial assault

[pogysnacks]

Noise marines are fantastic, cheaper than before, and sonic weapons being salvo 2/3, they can deliver a withering amount of shooting, and deny cover saves to the low armor guardsmen eldar/dark eldar and orks that usually come in mass and find cover. Taking them in units of 10 with all the sonic goodies is really, really good, but for that unit, with sonic weapons, blastmaster, doom siren, and banner of excess, with veteran of the long war comes in at a whopping 287 points...thats with no transport, no chainswords, no power weapon...etc...they are expensive as hell...but 2-3 units with a slaanesh lord, in combination with hurons warlord trait can give you the positioning to shell the crap out of your opponent form turn 1..and from my experience against guard with these guys, he had no scoring units left by turn 3, they are expensive but the amount of firepower they provide denying cover is outstanding, they just park it somewhere and shoot. They can be equipped to be good in assault, but it takes away from what theyre good at, and if taking as a scoring unit, find the objectives in cover, give them feel no pain with the banner of excess, and wither away your opponent..in competetive environments i see these guys being up there with plague marines in most of the chaos lists, but in my opinion theyre better then the stinky nurgle counterparts because they can kill the auto-include guard allies a lot of people bring with little to no effort, and in terms of space marines, the doom siren and blastmaster can make shor work of them...if youre not going to use them aggressively, then the doom siren may just be 15 pts you may not want to take, but if youre opponent is playing a MEQ army that can weather your sonic shooting and advance on your objectives, the doom siren can aid in ridding yourself of them. Whether troops or elites i recomend using them with Huron, to position them good enough to pour sonic weapons into your enemy.
Chosen are really good, minus infiltrate from before but with the ability to take vets of the long war, and the pleathora of banners new to chaos, you got a solid ld10 unit with hatred towards their corny loyalist brothers ..you can equip them to your specific needs, i personally spent a ton of pts running 10 with mark of slaanesh, icon of excess, champ with combi plas, lightning claw, 1 chosen with melta, 2 with meltagun lightning claw, 2 with plasma gun lightning claw...(all the lightning claws because of the cool ones that came in the raptor box)..and they did good, very expensive, these guys are versatile as hell with a ton of good options, so in a competitive environment i see these guys making their ways in to a lot of lists..hell you can min max these guys to five in a rhino with 4 meltas and a combi melta for 185 points...expensive fire dragons essentially with better armor and a cheap transport..outflank them with hurons ability and start killing stuff.

[pogysnacks]

Before i add anything else i would like to encourage you all again to add in your own thoughts, tactics and criticism

[professor]

I am still working through the codex - I made it up to the bikers last night before I had to head off to bed. From that reading and what I have picked up off the internet - I think CSM have excellent synergy with Daemons.

Yeah it all comes back to Daemons for me, I know, but bear with me.

The trouble with allying w/ Daemons is that it is difficult to support either side of the army effectively. However, with the Master of Deception trait on Huron and Ahriman there is a great opportunity to position forces near the enemy - or within closing range of the enemy early on. I love the idea of brining Noise Marines with them - a large unit of 12-18 to wipe apart those Aegis lines. Naturally all infiltrated - since they have to come from the Elites slot for Daemons, I would bring a unit of Cultists to reserve for cheap backfield objective grabbing - which Daemons lack

The Noise Marines provide 3+ bodies, the Feel No Pain on them is great and Daemons can handle the assault.

I am a big fan of the Sorcerers as well - and I think the Forge Fiend with its 8 shots is being underestimated a bit. In my experience with Daemons noone bothers to shoot the backfield units when there are 60 wounds of Screamers, Flamers, Crushers and Fiends nearby.

More comments as I make it through the codex!

[pogysnacks]

Noise Marines are imo the best unit in the codex, as you said they ssynergise well with your demons...but also look at their versatility, take the sonic weapons away and you have a decent counter assault unit w I5 fnp.
A lot of people were really only looking at how well plague marines work with epidemus, but id have to say with the sheer number of wounds noise marines put out, and with the ability to flush out units in cover, they just add more as allies, take a slaanesh lord with lightning claws and 2 units of marines and game on..Where as yes plague marines are nasty, but the flaw is they wont build up so many tally marks that fast to a smart opponent, and noise marines will most likely be seen in fatecrusher as mid range fire support dropping salvos and blastmaster damage on those annoying guard units, or entrenched marines..helps to reduce firepower from your opponent and allow you to demoniacally assault more aggressive

[professor]

I made it through the codex and looked at the point costs last night - as well as the psychic powers - and I really like what they did with this codex.

It is complex enough for tournament players but customizable for casual play. It is pretty deep in how it can be played and I do not think we are going to see (at least for a while) a single build that is the 'best' one.

I said this before - but I like Noise Marines a lot for this book and with a Slaanesh Sorcerer there is a good chance to get Symphony of Destruction from the table - Sonic Weaposn +1 S and -1 BS/WS from the enemy. Even at face value this is a great ability, but paired with Noises it looks potentially awesome.

I think Huron is a gem here - he is the only one with access to divination potentially which is my favorite discipline and Master of Deception is very very good.

Looking at the cost I also think the Mauler Fiends are better than I thought - I would probably run them with the Magna Cutters actually - since they are more likely to die to Krak grenades than a stray Power Fist. Their Base 2 attacks seems low - but they are fast as heck (12" move, MTC, never slowed by terrain, Fleet) so they will probably get to charge plus they get +1 A for 2 DCCW and with a successful hit gain another S8 AP1 attack. If you hit with all 4 attacks, you get +2 attacks for a total of 6 on the charge which is a decent number of swings.

The odds to lose it to Kraks is not as high as I first thought - 10 attacks yield 7 hits and 1 glance with a 5+ Daemon save and then 5+ It Will Not Die too.

The Forge Fiends with their 8 S8 Ap4 shots also have a lot of potential - high volume low BS attacks are how you take down flyers and they should do this well. I probably would not put plasma on them.

Otherwise, stock CSM are really cheap - same as a sister of Battle but with SM stats and so many options to make them deadly.

Overall, this book is going to change how people play CSM - they are much much different than they were. I think they excel at the foot horde role and a wve of cultists in front of them can grant a cover save to the army for ~200 points for 40-50 bodies is sick.

With that said - anyone want to swap me some Dark Angels for some Chaos Cultists?

[pogysnacks]

Because of the customization possibilities im already admitting myself wholeheartedly as a bastard son of chaos..maybe ive thrown dice with my eldar a lot but no fear, im back home to my first tabletop pew pew loves.
The best thing other than the rules about this codex is the lack of Matt Ward "derp" in the fluff and units (no magical flying dreadnaughts brofisting necrons, or magical demon killing baby carrier of doom, with 20 points total cost for 1 marine with more toys than a custodes..ugh i digress). So to reiterate: THANK YOU PHIL KELLY!!!!!
Its hard with this codex to build something without wanting to take other things that you know you cant squeeze in, which makes it good..hell i think spawn and possessed are viable now too..or who wants to know a cheap slaanesh lord thats pretty decen but wont kill your points: Lightning claw, combi-melta, MoS-105pts...ya
Ill have to agree with you professor Huron Blackheart opens up your game a little bit alowing for flexibility, the only thing i wanna see now out of this codex is someone running a zombie horde

[professor]

Ask and ye shall receive...

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/483009.page

[chaoscraig]

units of nurgle spawn may be my new best freind. they soak up a ton of fire...threaten weaker units with lots of attacks... give your other units cover saves and are great when in units of one for striping a unit of its overwatch ability.

[pogysnacks]

that was pretty awesome, but personally im using zombies from fantasy, i had a vamp counts army from years ago so they're finding multiple uses lol
Looking through the codex makes me glad that dual force orgs are usually a non factor, or banned in competition...i would hate to play against 18 obliterators

[evil_red_orks]

Been using Ahriman alot because of his master of deception. Only thing is u kinda have to build your list around him and his trait.Yes Ahriman i incredibly expensive,even with the 20 pt decrease,but he makes your whole army extremley flexible.

I been making squads attack each other, ahriman has been toughness 7 and str. 9(with staff) a couple of times. I like Ahriman and what he brings to the table.

I've been using him to infiltrate and outflank with a squad of sons in a rhino.YOU MUST give the infiltrate ability to a character in the warlord trait phase, then join him to the squad off the table, THEN u can infiltrate/outflank with everything. U CANNOT do it the other way around as per the rulebook under infiltrate.

Noise marines are great..the only thing i have a problem with is the blastmaster. Its so good that sometimes id rather not move the squad so i can use its blast even though the sonic blasters might be out of range. Of course master of deception makes this problem kinda moot point.

Plaque marines are great. I use a nurgle lord with claws,sigil,blight,gift.No demon weapons, just a nice and simple lord.

I run 2 squads of plagues, 1 squad of sons and a group of 20 cultists as my troops.10 noise marines, 5 termies for my elites.8 havocs with missles as heavies.

only have 2 rhinos, which i try to outflank and/or infiltrate if i roll high enough. Other than that its all power armor and some cultists.

I pretty much ignore flyers.