Iron Warrior
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Post by Iron Warrior on Mar 2, 2006 1:24:05 GMT -5
Since I am playing Orks I have been doing alot of research into the rules. However, Shuan found this one out and I have to give him props for it because this has been a discusion numerous times with my orks.
Kustom force fields in regards to vehicles:
In the old codex it says it grants Hull Down In the FaQ for the New edition is says it grants concealment to vehicles.
NOTE: Conceament is only ever dicussed in the Smoke Launchers rules on page 69 (hehehe) of the BBB. Also note that Obscurement is a totaly diffrent rule.
Thus: Any vehicle at least half covered by a Custom forcefield gains the benefit of Concealment (ie smoke launchers) and all hits are Glancing only. This is how I will be playing it from now on.
Thank you Shaun for pointing this out to me. I missed it.
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Post by Ranger Dude on Mar 2, 2006 10:40:17 GMT -5
Good call. That should make a huge difference in vehicle survivability.
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Post by dragons3 on Mar 2, 2006 11:23:02 GMT -5
SORRY RON, I THOUGHT YOU KNEW THAT! THATS WHY I BRIEFLY MENTIONED FORCE FIELDS COSTING 5 POINTS PER TRUCK WHEN YOU WERE DESCRIBING THE SLIDE OVER TO SPEED FREAKS AS YOU BUILD YOUR ORK ARMY TO COLONEL COLLO-WHAT-EVER. SQUIG-GOTTS AWAY!
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Post by Catachan Colonel on Mar 2, 2006 12:02:09 GMT -5
The word Conceament is not used once in the description of smoke launchers. I have read it twice. there is a one time refrence to smoke showing it is concealed. (but i can understand how you would make the natuaral refrence)
but if you use the rules for smoke launchers for the Kustom Force Field you must be concidering a Kustom Force Field as under page 69
so using your Kustom Force field as smoke launchers to be concealed remember the vehicle may not shoot any of its weapons. (Gotta use the whole rule)
Saves those sad opponents from a few rockets or big shootas.
However upon review it looks like the old Faq that kept passengers from firing out of firing points when smoke is used does not seem to be in 4th edition So the Ork and imperial passengers can still shoot. (Useful for Chimeras)
I agree with you Ron and all smoke launcher /concealed rule users using the totallity of the rule. I know i will be shooting out my top hatches
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Post by johnboo on Mar 2, 2006 12:16:18 GMT -5
This is how I will be playing it from now on. . YEAH! Me too!
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MajorSoB
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THE GRUMPY OLD MAN!
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Post by MajorSoB on Mar 2, 2006 13:22:37 GMT -5
Dammit, then I am taking Kustom Force Fields on my Raiders too!!!!!
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Post by colonelellios on Mar 2, 2006 14:01:48 GMT -5
Dammit, then I am taking Kustom Force Fields on my Raiders too!!!!! Hahaha...if you want to waste points on giving a fast skimmer "glancing only" upgrades go ahead! ;D
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Iron Warrior
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The Iron
Iron Within! Iron Without!
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Post by Iron Warrior on Mar 2, 2006 14:30:19 GMT -5
No Tom. The Kustom Force Field grants concealment, not works like a smoke launcher. No where in the FAQ does it say "works as a smoke launcher"
It says: "Grants Concealment to Vehicles"
Taken into consideration the points cost (25) haveing to have a mek carry it (9+11pts) count as a 2 handed weapon and all ork vehicles being open topped, it sounds like KFF is right where is should be.
NOTE: As I have it here, is the way it worked in the last edition. So I believe its the correct way of using the KFF.
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Post by dragons3 on Mar 2, 2006 14:37:25 GMT -5
COLONEL CATACHAN: WOULDN'T A SPACEMARINE RINO HAVE THE SAME ABILITY SINCE YOU CAN FIRE 2 RAPID FIRE OR ASSAULT WEAPONS FROM THE TOP HATCH, AND IF I DON'T MOVE THE RINO, CAN I NOT FIRE A HEAVY WEAPON OR 2 FROM THE TOP HATCH? IF SMOKE LAUNCHERS ARE USED AT THE END OF THE MOVEMENT PHASE, HOW CAN YOU SHOOT THROUGH THE SMOKE? AND IF YOU CAN, WOULDN'T YOUR TARGET AUTOMATICALLY GET A COVER SAVE? AND IF YOUR VEHICLE IS LONGER THAN 6'' CAN YOU STILL FIRE A WEAPON SINCE YOU CAN SEE ANYTHING? "I'M NOT BUYING THIS A BIT!" "IT'S APPLES TO ORANGES" SORRY ABOUT THE POOR DESCRIPTIONS, I GOTTA GO! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ORKS CODEX, ORK WAR GEAR, PAGE 35: MEKBOYZ HAVE AN UNCANNY UNDERSTANDING OF BATTLEFIELD TECHNOLOGY AND WILL SOMETIMES BUILD OR SCAVENGE POWERFUL FORCE FIELD PROJECTORS TO PROTECT THE BOYZ ON THE BATTLE FIELD. A KUSTOM FORCE FIELD GIVES ALL MODELS WITHIN 6" A 5+ COVER SAVING THROW, VEHICLES WITHIN 6" ARE TREATED AS BEING HULL DOWN. THE FORCE FIELD HAS NO EFFECT IN CLOSE COMBAT OR AGAINST SHOOTING WITHIN 6" OF THE OPERATOR. MEKBOYZ ONLY 20 POINTS. FORCE FIELD SPEED FREEK UPGRADE: MEKBOYZ ARE ADEPT AT CONSTRUCTING FORCE FIELD GENERATORS TO PROTECT OPEN TOP VEHICLES. THE VEHICLES STILL COUNT AS BEING OPEN-TOP BUT NO LONGER SUFFER THE -1 MODIFIER TO ITS DAMAGE ROLLS. IF THE VEHICLE WAS FAST TYPE BEFORE, IT LOSES THIS ABILITY DUE TO THE POWER DRAINED BY THE GENERATORS, (5 POINTS). THIS CAN BE FOUND ON PAGE 10, ARMAGEDDON CODEX. MY SON CHAD HAS ORKS!
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Post by Catachan Colonel on Mar 2, 2006 20:24:20 GMT -5
lets not discuss point costs in relation to orks or we will get into 2pt grot riggers vrs 10 point track guards and the 3 pts to upgrade armor 6 to armor 2
lets face it after 3 cover saves it has piad for itself (unless they are grots)
If it does not work as a smoke launcher and the word Concealment is never used in the smoke launcher rule than it can be argued quite correctly you will have to find a actual rule for Concealment
Much like in a diffrent argument that you cant infer the rules for deep striking land speeders by looking at rules for deep striking raiders... you cant simply apply some but not all of the rules for smoke launchers to Kustom forcefields. The Rules were very specific on page 69 that those were rules for SMOKE LAUNCHERS.
If you want to use the Concealment ability than i suggest having done more research that we look in the in index for the word Concealment and it will point to page 84. On 84 will be a well written rule for exactly what concealment does!
Looks like its night fighting check on first turn if the vehicle does not move or shoot. as per page 84 for the actual rules for Concealment
Looks like i may have to retract my old statement about trying to use the smoke launcher rules because page 84 is very clear about what Concealment does.
(i guess its dark under the bubble)
This is how I will be playing it from now on. against all Ork opponents.
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Hagbard The Mighty
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The cheesiest
In 40k if something is off, it can easily be explained in-universe as being because the Warp did it.
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Post by Hagbard The Mighty on Mar 3, 2006 9:35:28 GMT -5
Gotta give this one to Tommy.
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Sanguinary
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WOW, his son looks strangely like Shaun,
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Post by Sanguinary on Mar 3, 2006 9:58:45 GMT -5
Yep. After reading the FAQ it is very specific that it grants a vehicle as being concealed. And concealment is a specific rule in the book. We shall use that.
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Post by jay on Mar 3, 2006 12:36:56 GMT -5
Man! Tommy is good!
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Post by Norton on Mar 3, 2006 12:48:26 GMT -5
Lets not give tommy too much credit here, it was his Girlfriend that spotted the section on concealment in the index while he was looking at the book
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Post by Catachan Colonel on Mar 3, 2006 13:08:39 GMT -5
Sad but true, it was her idea to look in the index for the actual rule. She is a smart one.
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