Boldo ... a couple of rules issues

[adsvampire]

Not being the type to normally argue rules during a game I will bring up the issues now.

ITEM #1

From our most recent game you said a gyrocopter could shoot steam or whatever on engaged enemy units (probably using another unit as a go-between). I call bullnuts on this and here is my reason:

pg 26 under "SHOOTING & COMBAT"

"Units are not normally allowed to shoot against enemy units that are engaged in close combat"

next, pg 26 under "TEMPLATES AND ACCIDENTAL HITS"

"Some war machines (stuff) and other similar weapons, spells, etc, may miss their target, deviate, and end up hitting units engaged in close combat."

It is impossbile for a gyrocopter's steam blast to miss it's target or deviate. Therefore it cannot meet the conditions for "accidentally" hitting units engaged in CC. Also, the rule above explicitly states you cannot target a unit engaged in CC.

Now, if you retort that the steam gun is not a shooting attack then I've got plenty to disprove that as well.


ITEM #2

DDDD
DDDD___UUBMU
DDDB___UUUUU
DDDMS__UUUUU
DDDD___UUUUU
________UUUUU

See the diagram above. Unit D is a unit of dwarf warriors. S is a lone slayer hero. U is a unit of undead. B is a banner. M is a musician.

Unit D and S have completely wiped out a unit of wraiths and now wish to overrun. S overruns to its current position. D wishes to overrun as well. You said that you could wheel to hit my unit of skeletons. Well, I again call bullnuts on this.

"Pursuers always move their full pursuit distance unless their pursuit takes them into contact with enemy units, friendly units, or impassable terrain, in which case they stop immediately." (pg 43)

Your unit of dwarf warriors should have stopped the moment it contacted the slayer. However, you did not do this and then proceeded to wheel your unit to make contact with my unit saying it counted as a charge since your full overrun move would make contact with my unit. Well, no it doesn't unless you ignore the current pursuit rules. It only counts as a charge if your overrun takes you into contact with my unit ... which it could not do due to the slayer character being in the way.


ITEM #3

From our previous game: Stubborn unit with a non-stubborn character.

I had a unit of skeletons flanking a unit of hammerers with a dwarf lord.

A unit only benefits from a characters Ld if the modified Ld is higher than their stubborn Ld (which it was not and can never be for dwarves) (see pgs 53 and 78). I saw you roll 2 10's for the break test of a unit of hammerers containing your dwarf general. That should have been 2 failures but you said the unit could use the characters Ld for stubborn break tests. A non-stubborn character in a stubborn unit does not magically give the unit a higher stubborn Ld. So, unless your dwarf lord had the Master Rune of Kingship (which I highly doubt since you never use items like that) I'm calling BS.

[boldo]

Item 1. I still feel that if the gyrocopter is targeting a unit and some other unit is close enough to be hit by the template then this is accidental and would be covered. As you remember I did not do this and did say I could be cheesy and do this and then did not.

Intem 2 First you are missing one important point on page 44 it does dnot give an order to movement and thus both the dwarves and the slayer would move simutaniously. So as the rule for pursuit into fresh enemy states"It sometimes happens that pursuers move so far that they hit a fresh enemy unit ... if the fresh enemy holds its ground ...the pursuers must endeavour to bring as many models into combat as possible. This means that it is normally necessary to wheel in order to maximize the number of combatants." I would understand this to be if the distance rolled is enough (and it was) then as I need to wheel I would be allowed to to maximize models without hitting the slayer if possible. I see this as the tactical wheel and many have critized this as a bit beardy. That is the way we played it. Sure the slayer then ended up in the way and we moved it out of the way but this seemed like the best thing to do. I still feel that a wheel there to max models when the number what high enough was correct as I could wheel to touch your unit. (This also ended up bad for me).

Item 3 I do not remember this but if it happened I did cheat. I assume you are talking about in February as I did not have a lord in march but I do not remember this. If this did happen I apologize and put it down to being a dirty cheater or confused.

By the way I like this sort of rules stuff so please feel free to challange me. I want us all to be on the same page rules wise.

Boldo

[boldo]

While driving home I could not quite thinking about this so I felt the need ot give some more thoughts.

Item 1 Now I do not remember the situation perfectly but I think you are refering to the corpse card which was behind a unit of skeletons almost touching. Assuming I wanted to shoot at the corpse cart are you implying that I can not use a breath weapon on it as it would be almost impssible to cover the corpse cart without hitting the other unit?

Item 2 I no long have a rule book and I may be confusing enemy in the way with pursuit into fresh troops. Here is how. We normally play that charges generate a charge path which is a the path which a unit would travel when it charges. If the opponent moves out of the path (flees) then if there is an enemy in the path the new unit gets to wheel to put the most models in the way. We might have carried this path into pursuit which I am not sure it is there. I am now tending toward the rules are unclear on this as no order is givcen for multiple pursuers and the wheel to get the most models in contacct if you move far enough to hit opponents can be interpreted many ways.

I also would like to state that if I do not get into this combat I think I win as you left a slayer on my turn and then killed them all in your combat so I would have been able to seperat the skeletons from the grave guard and score them. So if I was wrong on this I would also like to apologize for tying you.

Boldo

[adsvampire]

Item 1. I still feel that if the gyrocopter is targeting a unit and some other unit is close enough to be hit by the template then this is accidental and would be covered. As you remember I did not do this and did say I could be cheesy and do this and then did not.

I don't agree with your thinking at all. Whatever is under the template of the gyrocopter is the intended target ... especially since you can put the template down and adjust it to maximize models hit. You have complete control over where that flame template goes ... I reiterate ... it is impossible for a gyrocopter's flame template to "accidentally" hit something. You may really want to hit model X and consider everything else under the template to be an "oops" ... but that is not supported by the rules in any fashion. That's like saying you want to just hit my unit champ but everything else is secondary. That may be what you are thinking but it doesn't change the fact that whatever is under the template or partially touched by it are the "targets" of that template.

Look at this situation using your analogy. I cast a spell at a unit and part of its template touches a unit engaged in combat and this unit has magic resistance. According to your claim above the engaged unit was not the intended target so the other unit doesn't get to apply its MR since it wasn't the intended target of the spell template. Does this sound right to you.


Intem 2 First you are missing one important point on page 44 it does dnot give an order to movement and thus both the dwarves and the slayer would move simutaniously. So as the rule for pursuit into fresh enemy states"It sometimes happens that pursuers move so far that they hit a fresh enemy unit ... if the fresh enemy holds its ground ...the pursuers must endeavour to bring as many models into combat as possible. This means that it is normally necessary to wheel in order to maximize the number of combatants." I would understand this to be if the distance rolled is enough (and it was) then as I need to wheel I would be allowed to to maximize models without hitting the slayer if possible. I see this as the tactical wheel and many have critized this as a bit beardy. That is the way we played it. Sure the slayer then ended up in the way and we moved it out of the way but this seemed like the best thing to do. I still feel that a wheel there to max models when the number what high enough was correct as I could wheel to touch your unit. (This also ended up bad for me).

In the situation I described your slayer was in the way of the warriors before and after his overrun. In order for your unit to count as charging mine it must make contact with my unit ... its actual pursuit distance is irrelevant. Your unit ... no matter what ... would contact your slayer before my unit and thus MUST stop immediately. Now, for your interp, that you are allowed to wheel to occur you must contact my unit. Overruning units move in a straight line and cannot wheel AT ALL unless the unit makes contact with an enemy unit and decides to charge it. Read the Pursuit into Fresh Enemy rules on page 45:

"It sometimes happens that pursuers move so far that they HIT a fresh enemy unit. another sentence. This is treated as if it were a new charge."

Notice the word "HIT" ... i.e. you must make contact with the unit before the pursuit/overrun is considered a charge. Both players agree that a "HIT" is made if the pursuing/overruning unit is not stopped before by a friendly unit or impassable terrain (note the unit must stop IMMEDIATELY if such occurs) and contacts an enemy unit. If it is found that the pursuing/overruning units makes contact then it is treated as a charge and the pursuing/overruning unit MUST wheel to maximize frontage and/or make the charge. Wheels are not allowed in a pursuit/overrun unless the unit makes contact with an enemy unit ... otherwise they move in a straight path.

Item 3 I do not remember this but if it happened I did cheat. I assume you are talking about in February as I did not have a lord in march but I do not remember this. If this did happen I apologize and put it down to being a dirty cheater or confused.

I think you were confused and thus made a point to bring it up. If I thought you were a cheater I'd say so .


Item 1 Now I do not remember the situation perfectly but I think you are refering to the corpse card which was behind a unit of skeletons almost touching. Assuming I wanted to shoot at the corpse cart are you implying that I can not use a breath weapon on it as it would be almost impssible to cover the corpse cart without hitting the other unit?

If you can't put the template down without hitting a unit engaged in CC or one of your own units then ... no ... you can't poof your intended "target" because your actual target(s) is illegal.


I also would like to state that if I do not get into this combat I think I win as you left a slayer on my turn and then killed them all in your combat so I would have been able to seperat the skeletons from the grave guard and score them. So if I was wrong on this I would also like to apologize for tying you.

You most likely would have won if we played the situation correctly.

[johnboo]

adsvampire said:

Item 1. I still feel that if the gyrocopter is targeting a unit and some other unit is close enough to be hit by the template then this is accidental and would be covered. As you remember I did not do this and did say I could be cheesy and do this and then did not.

I don't agree with your thinking at all. Whatever is under the template of the gyrocopter is the intended target ... especially since you can put the template down and adjust it to maximize models hit. You have complete control over where that flame template goes ... I reiterate ... it is impossible for a gyrocopter's flame template to "accidentally" hit something. You may really want to hit model X and consider everything else under the template to be an "oops" ... but that is not supported by the rules in any fashion. That's like saying you want to just hit my unit champ but everything else is secondary. That may be what you are thinking but it doesn't change the fact that whatever is under the template or partially touched by it are the "targets" of that template.

So, you wouldnt allow someone to target it with a screaming skull catapult shot because you are also "targetting" the units around it? Hmmfh. I wasnt aware you could ever "target" more than one unit.

[adsvampire]

John, that is a completely different situation. First, a player is not supposed to target (or locations on) units engaged in CC or friendly units. You are not supposed to deliberately guess such that either of the above situations is true. Also, an SSC shot CAN deviate ... a gyrocopter flame template cannot, under any circumstances, deviate. Read the "Template and Accidental Hits" rules on pg 26 of the rule book.

Next, have you ever shot a stone thrower or SSC and aimed for a spot between 2 units? I have. I'd call that targeting more than one unit ... but in the case of a stone thrower you are actually "targeting" a point on the table.

None of this matters though. A gyrocopter flame template can never miss or deviate so it cannot meet the requirements for accidental hits under "Template and Accidental Hits".

[johnboo]

The fact that you are targetting a unit with a SSC between 2 units you cannot should prevent you from shooting it. Because if it does hit as intended, by your reasoning, you have targetted the template over the other units. Which is not "accidental", is it?

I agree it's slightly different with breath weapons, but the breath weapon is still only targetting one unit, the others are just in the way....

And no, you cannot target a spot on the table - you need a target. You can target a model on a corner near another unit, in hopes of hitting another unit also...unless we are playing by your interepetation and roll a direct hit!

[adsvampire]

The fact that you are targetting a unit with a SSC between 2 units you cannot should prevent you from shooting it. Because if it does hit as intended, by your reasoning, you have targetted the template over the other units. Which is not "accidental", is it?

You caught me on that. A stone thrower must target a model ... my bad. However, in the example I gave I was assuming the 2 units were not friendly and neither was engaged. "Accidental" hits in the case of the flame template used for a gyrocopter (or any breath weapon) are impossible. The simple fact still remains that they can't miss nor deviate ... both of which are requirements for accidental hits. If it is not an accidental hit then by default it must be an intentional hit and therefore is illegal to do against anything engaged in combat or friendly.

[boldo]

Adam you make very strong arguements and I hope in a tournament I would listen to these and handle the situation in item 2 like I did in item 1. I hope I would say well yeah it is a bit cheesy so I will not do it. Unfortunately the game we play is a complex one where many odd situations may arise and local situations for handling them may not be correct. As such please feel free to question me and I want you to know that I love getting out the rule book and checking things. I feel that this is an unfortunate result of the rules being a bit poorly written and indexed. I wish you had made more an argument at the time and we could have hashed this out face to face and then gotten back to the gaame.

Boldo