MajorSoB
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Post by MajorSoB on Feb 10, 2006 19:55:55 GMT -5
I prefer to think of it as pointman, not patsy. Pointman is the guy the send out first to take a bullet to the mellon so they no where the snipers are.
Yeah, Bush was elected at about the same percentage and he is doing a great job, right Alex, Paul???
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Iron Warrior
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Post by Iron Warrior on Feb 10, 2006 23:17:18 GMT -5
Doug, you ever hear of a figure head? Dance my puppet, dance!
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Post by Catachan Colonel on Feb 11, 2006 2:00:13 GMT -5
spoken like a true republican Doug.
Remember their dogma... If you get more than 50% of the votes you have a "Mandate from the people"
if you are elected by less...
"A Mandate does not matter"
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raufar more manly than me
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Post by raufar more manly than me on Feb 12, 2006 22:03:50 GMT -5
Awwwww .... Ron's just pissed he got 0 votes! ;D
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MajorSoB
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Post by MajorSoB on Feb 13, 2006 16:57:03 GMT -5
I did hear back from the Syracuse guys and here was their response. Please read it over and see what you think. Feedback as well as potential interest would be nice, so sound off like you got a pair!
There response is as follows:
Doug, Good to hear from you. We have been progressing fairly quickly on our end the last few days to make this thing forward. First off we finally have a team name: "The Double Deuce." DD currently has 11 individuals interested in this little shindig. Numbers may of course change due timing of the event, personal schedules, etc. These individuals represent a range of skill level/experience reflexive of the meta-game here; very experienced players on one end, relatively new players on the other. In all, I think we represent a nice cross section of the local 40K gaming community (at least those that play at GW and/or Altered States regularly).
Regarding the format of the actual tourney: we recently voted and approved as a body a tourney format. It is as follows:
1. Three rounds: Fairly standard.
2. Set round missions (no particular order): "Cleanse," "Recon," and "Secure and Control," all at Gamma or Omega (determined prior to tourney). This is in part to avoid a situations like the first round of the last GW tourney, or other weird scenarios.
3. Standard tourney round pairings: 1st round random; 2nd and 3rd pairings based on victories/losses (similar record gets matched to similar). Except of course, opponents are from separate teams.
4. Point value: 1850.
5. Only GT allowed armies allowed in tourney: Tau empires will be out by then. Don't think the new City Fight with its rumored new lists will be out though.
6. All armies are wysiwyg.
7. Painting not required, however must be based: This is a concession for some of our newer players who will not be able to fully complete painting their armies prior to the tourney. Also allows for some of our veterans to play other armies to give more variety to our team.
8. Victory for the tourney is based solely on overall team victory points accumulated by respective team members. This avoids the complexities of factoring in "soft scores" (painting and sportsmanship) into the team format for the tourney. Also allows for every game, and therefore every player regardless of experience, to have an impact on the outcome of the tourney.
Arguably, there are aspects of this format that can be used to one's advantage in creating army lists. Also, the removal of soft scores could also have an impact on game play. Unfortunately, I think the current climate between the two groups the way it is (particularly certain individuals in each group), trying to force/enforce relative concepts (e.g. sportsmanship, army construction, painting) may be asking a bit much.
Regarding tourney location, it has be a topic of discussion though we have not yet discussed it officially as a body. I recall Terry offering up GW as possible location when we first started to discuss this tourney a few months ago. We also have the possibility of Altered States, though we haven't broached the topic with the owner yet. The positives for both of these locations is that they can hold a large number of participants. On the other hand, if we were trying to find a "neutralish" location for the tourney to take place, I think GW is the only option. There, at least, we can have Terry and the guys serve as referees. By and large I think our group would accept Terry as a neutral referee despite his brother's participation.
Regarding date: the April dates that appear open are 1+2, 8+9, and 29+30. This is considering things like Easter and some other tourney that is happening that month (I think). We have only begun discussing this issue, however people seem to be leaning toward the 1st and the 30th right now. Nothing is definite. We'll need to discuss this some more, especially after we agree/find a sponsor/location.
Personally, I think this event could be a blast (hopefully not literally ). I think if our respective teams just create the best army lists that we can, and play them against each other (hopefully mending a few fences in the process), the outcome can be beneficial to both sides. It's not like I'm expecting a group hug at the end. However, the more we know each other, the less likely we are to have the heated arguments that we see on the boards that frequently devolve into us vs. them tirades. If nothing else the event will breed a certain esprit de corps for our respective groups (we're already having fun constructing army lists).
Looking forward to future discussions/negotiations, Chris N.
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Post by shaun on Feb 13, 2006 17:31:26 GMT -5
Sounds like they have things well in hand. Cant say that I disagree with anything. Comp and sportsmanship scoring would be nice, but I don't see a way to make it "fair and balanced".
Oh, and I just voted for you Ron. Aufar more manly than me made me feel sympathetic ;D ;D ;D
Besides, Doug is fine for this. We need somebody that is susceptible to being a puppet and Ben hasn't let Tommy put his hand up his a$$ in a while ;D (some of you will remember the incident in question).
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MajorSoB
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Post by MajorSoB on Feb 13, 2006 17:41:30 GMT -5
Besides, Doug is fine for this. We need somebody that is susceptible to being a puppet and Ben hasn't let Tommy put his hand up his a$$ in a while ;D (some of you will remember the incident in question). Shouldn't that fall under the catagory of "Don't ask, don't tell"?
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Iron Warrior
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Post by Iron Warrior on Feb 13, 2006 22:07:32 GMT -5
Over all, it look fine. Some concerns i have include the following.
Uh huh...meta game. And what is thier definition of meta game because I have my own opinion and its not a positive one.
no soft scores? Well I can see what this is turning into.
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Sanguinary
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Post by Sanguinary on Feb 14, 2006 7:09:59 GMT -5
no soft scores? Well I can see what this is turning into. Yep. I was thinking the same thing. Oh well. Iron Warriors Rejoice and crush!!!!!!!!
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Post by tripp on Feb 14, 2006 12:16:36 GMT -5
Metagame is a gaming environment, the larger picture then just the singular game. In the case of 40k it is the primary way the game is played and the present armies in population. Such as, does your gaming environment allow skimmers to be penned in cc, do you follow casualties from 12 inches with rapid fire weaponry or do you go the 24 inch casualty distance? Also, what percentage of players are marines, guard, (d)eldar, tau, dirty pirate hookers, etc.
It is used in the vernacular of competetive CCG players as opposed to the rping where use of OOC information IC is viewed as metagaming or going against character desire to achieve a greater ooc result. Think of it as a term used to describe the environment of play.
For the soft scores, this is a competition to see who the best of the best are. This isn't about hold your hand jimmy while we have a fun little game, this is who can win. Typically RTT and GT events are hobby tournaments, where the overall hobbyist wins out. I am visioning this as a competetive environment not a hobbyist environment. It is only judging who has the better players. Soft scores would unbalance this. If I'm playing for my side to win, I'm going to give you zero's across the board for soft scores because I need your team to do worse then my team. If it is VP only, then it is an objective way to evaluate overall team ability. There shouldn't be subjective scoring. It isn't about feeling good about one's self, it is about objective, quantifiable results.
This doesn't imply being a asshat. If every breath you take makes your opponent want to enter the punch you in the face phase, you don't get it. We are moving little toy soldiers around a table with miniature terrain settings. This is a pretty ridiculous activity. If you can't do it with a sense of humor you fail at life. However, when it comes to team scoring then it needs to be VP and if your opponent made you want to enter the where's my 2x4 with nails sticking out of it phase then you settle that out in the parking lot in what will be known as the after tourney Titan among MEN beat down event.
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MajorSoB
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Post by MajorSoB on Feb 14, 2006 12:30:21 GMT -5
Ron and Tripp, it looks like you both have opinions on this and here are mine. Personally, I like the idea of involving the hobby as well as just an all out slugfeast, so it does bother me that comp and painting are not included. What we do at DaBoyz is try to promote a friendly gaming environment that promotes all aspects of the hobby, painting, conversion, etc, along with the simple math on how to build the best army and what will earn back its points. That being said we can go either way on this, we could A) Agree to bringing badass armies and see who can put the worst beatdown on who with the worst possible list. So far that is what is being suggested, and if those are the rules I am sure everyone hear can rise to the challenge. or B) We could negotiate so that minimum standards are adhered to like having armies that are GT legal (3 colors, based, WYSIWIG, etc) and insist that "wrong" list be left at home. No one wants to see the Siren bomb, 9 obliterators, the Ultwae mega farseer list, etc. We all know what lists are wrong and I am sure the guys in Syracuse do as well. So what say you all? I would like to see a good competition but I want you guys to make the call. I will start another thread polling to see which direction you all would like this to go in. Comments as always are appreciated. Here is a link to the poll, daboyzateam.proboards77.com/index.cgi?board=news&action=display&thread=1139938735
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Post by tripp on Feb 14, 2006 12:40:32 GMT -5
B) We could negotiate so that minimum standards are adhered to like having armies that are GT legal (3 colors, based, WYSIWIG, etc) You will lose at least half the 'Cuse folk if you enforce the painting. I'm all for wysiwyg, since it makes the game really hard otherwise, but several of our folk won't have painted armies available in that amount of time.
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MajorSoB
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Post by MajorSoB on Feb 14, 2006 12:45:30 GMT -5
Tripp, that is a dilemma. With our club we have guys that enjoy the painting aspect of the hobby just as much as the gaming aspect. We have tried to promote the hobby as well as just the dice rolling. I do not want to see anyone excluded, but I also know that several of the members will feel slighted if painting and comp are totally ignored. I play with these guys every week and I know they can tool out their armies if that is what is being suggested, but in the past when this happens it does not make for fun gaming since most matched are decided before the first model is placed.
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Iron Warrior
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Post by Iron Warrior on Feb 14, 2006 14:04:33 GMT -5
ok, I see where your coming from now. I was thinking of something else. Thanks for clarifying this.
So pretty much it comes down to, we would like painting and comp to be involved in scoreing, Syracuse players cant or wont have fully painted armys and think that people will be immature and score bad comp/sports due to the incident at Gagg con.
This is the way I see it:
-No painting scores: Why did I just spend 150 hours painting my armie(s) just so I can play people with non painted armies? Most rules say painting counts in tournaments.
-No comp: I created my armies to be fair to play with and against. I take a "fluffy" army for the choices I have not one that will crush my opponent and leaving him feeling cheated. I take into consideration my opponents fun in the game as well. I dont like going into a game that has already been decided before we set up. BOOOOOORING!
-No Sports: Essentially people can be ass holes if the so choose, nit pick the rules, and question your every move with out any reprocussion.
However you look at it people will be asses, douches and ass hats if they want to. Just because its a game doesnt make it an less apart of life and as in life you have your ill tempered, foul mouthed and jack asses. Sometimes a Sports score will often deter them from acting in such a way that will bring the game into disrespute.
ANYWAYS: my thoughts. We Dont have to use the afore mentioned if it will cause problems. I would prefer if we did but its not a nessesity if its going to drop half of your people from the game.
My recomendation PAINT YOURE FRICKEN ARMIES!!! Its as much apart of the game as it is rolling the dice.
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Post by Ranger Dude on Feb 14, 2006 14:36:31 GMT -5
Personally, I think the hobby does need to be included. That is what this is all about. But to avoid the problem of subjective scoring, set up simple rubrics for comp and painting before hand, similar to the old RT rubrics. You don't necesarily have to make prizes for best painted or best comp considering the nature of this tourney, but they should still be a factor. I always feel that if you aren't into the painting and modeling at least at a basic level, then this is the wrong game for you. Go play heroclix or something.
Sportsmanship I have no answer to. I would have no problem with an honor environment with the judges removing extreme cases, leaving scoring out of it. Nobody said the A$$hats couldn't play....but nobody says we have to like them either.
If fully pained armies is such an issue for the syracuse guys, push the date back a bit so they can get them painted.
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