On rubrics

[Wolf Lord Snorville]

IF rubrics favor space marines and put every other army at a disadvantage, then we should create one that is fair across the board... or as close to it as possible.

Maybe we look at the classic rubrics and add and subtract some things.

I would suggest negative points if you have more landspeeders w/ assault cannons than you have squads

Sorry, left off the shut up brian option

[Ranger Dude]

I like Rubrics for establiching basic quideline. They can't be the be-all end all since they can't really take into account things like theme and flavor. But they are good. Painting in particular can be helped by Rubrics. I liked the old one for painting. But there should be some player input as well. Comp could be the same way. Rubric for the basics and Player input for further scoring.

[Brinan The Barbarian]

I like the land speeder w/ assault cannons and troops rule.

[Iron Warrior]

www.players-society.com/wpsstuff/rules/AC_WFBCC200401.pdf

This is a very good rubric for fantasy. I like the general and specific systems for it. It can be easily adapted to 40k.

For example.

General would look something like:

20% or less troops -300
21-30% troops -150
31-45% troops 0 <---most games are in this range
46-65% troops +150
66%+ troops +300

1 elite +0
2 or more elites -100

0 pts. on wargear +200
1-50pts. on wargear +100
50-75pts. +0
75-100pts. -100
100+pts. -200

1 IC +100
2 or more IC -100

Min Sized squads:
1: 0
2: -100
3: -200
4: -300
5: -400
6+: -500

Then a more specific would be something like"

Iron Warriors:

1 Ordance: 0
2 Ordance: -100
3 Ordance: -300
4 Ordance: -500

1 unit of Obliterators: 0
2 Units : -200
3 Units: -400

Deamon Prince: -150

Possesed: +150
Raptors: +150

All units marked with undived: +100

2 identical Heavy wepons in diffrent sqauds: 0
3 " ": -50
4 " ": -100
5 " ": -200
6" ": -400


Again this is a rough sample...but somthing like this.

[Catachan Colonel]

I would like to start challenging assumptions that ruberics favor space marines.

This has been claimed and never proven (with a legitamet argument). As often anr ruberic hard on one army "Favors space marines", ignoring it favors 5 other armies too.

Ruberics dont favor space marines.

[Iron Warrior]

Gentlemen my suggestion to you would be give some feed back on this system or you may be very surprised when you see this rubric or a very similar one used for the Brockport convention. Boldo and few others, as well as myself were working with this system thursday night and most of us like it. We want to implicate it into the brockport convention for 40k and fantasy.

I think it does a fine job with comp scores. Take a look at it.

[Iron Warrior]

On that note lets do some marine bashing. What should be penalized in a marine army for taking to much of:

Oh I know....

Assualt cannons
Multiple 3 wounds characters
min/max squads
multiple ordance
allies(?)
Not taking a force commander?
same old librarian and chaplain?

just for starters.... ;D

[Ranger Dude]

I like this system. If I could be here, I would love to hash it out with you guys, but my flight leaves at the ass crack of dawn tomorrow. I wouldn't mind seeing a final/draft version put up here before heand so we can know ahead of time/comment on it.

[Wolf Lord Snorville]

Assualt cannons

-Agree with that one, although I find the landspeeder ones far more chedderish than the rest

Multiple 3 wounds characters

-doesn't really hurt the chappy/librarian combo that seems so popular (seem to be more 2 wound chappys lately)

min/max squads

- I like the idea of requiring a certain number of max size squads, not necessarily the 2 compulsory troop choices.

multiple ordinance

- What should be hosed more?
a) A space marine player taking 3 whirlwinds
b) A Chaos player with 3 defilers
c) A guard player with 3 bassies
d) a guard player with 1 leman russ, 1 russ domolisher, and a bassy.

while the 4th is obviously still a crutch, I don't believe it should be penalized as much as the first 3. There should be some sort of emphasis against multiple identical units.

allies

- depends on the chapter and the ally I would say.

Not taking a force commander?

- depends on the chapter.

same old librarian and chaplain?

- how about a hit for the second power on a big librarian.

Just thought I'd try and throw out some more specific ideas.

[Iron Warrior]

Well take into consideration this is a specific comp for marines only right now. These are just things to take into consideration. I believe I hit the hot spots on marines, is there any I missed?

If not the "specific army comp scoring" would look something like this:

Force Commander: +100 pts
Chaplain (2wounds) -100
(3wpunds) -200
Librarian(2 wounds) -100
(3wounds)-200
: More than 1 power: -100extra

Duplicate of the same Character regardless of wounds: -200pts

Total Assualt cannons in army:
0 : +100
1-2: +0
3-4: -150
5-6: -300
7+: -500

Whirlwinds:
1: +0
2: -200
3: -400

Vindicators:
1: +0
2: -300
3: -600

min sized squads:
1: +0
2: -100
3: -200
4: -300
5: -400
6+: -500

Number of land speeders:
1(total in the army): +0
2: -100
3: -200
* Thats per squadren. So if you have 3 in the first squadren and 2 in the second thats a total of -300pts. (-200+ -100).

Allies is a bit more tricky to do:
Quite frankly I dont see the need or fluff behind a marine taking in allies like DH or WH. I can see the reverse happening. I dont see marines using assasins either.

Allies taken: -200/squad/vehicle
Assasin (big ones): -200

Again a rough sketch...thats for a genaric marine army, of course you have a similar one for BA,DA or SW but diffrent bonus and penalties for various things we hate/like.

[Ranger Dude]

I wouldn't necesarily penalize someone for a Chappy or Librarian if it their only character. I do like the bonus for a force commander as it would encourage them to use a rarely used choice. I would say the penalty should be if a chappy or librarian shows up as a second character, compounded if it is two of the same. Maybe include a bonus for a certain # of max sized squads.

[dragons3]

WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF PERCENT?
A) NUMBER OF UNITS SELECTED FROM TOTAL?
EXAMPLE: 6 TROOP SQUADS OUT OF 15 SELECTIONS, (40%).

B) TOTAL TYPE OF MODELS SELECTED?
EXAMPLE:45 SPACEMARINES OUT OF 62 MODELS TOTAL, (72.6%).

C) TOTAL POINTS PER UNIT TYPE OVER TOTAL?
EXAMPLE: 5 TACTICAL SQUADS ARE 850 POINTS OUT 1500 POINTS TOTAL, (56.7%).

D) YOU TELL ME?

THANKS FOR THE RESPONSE, HAVE A NICE DAY.

[Hagbard The Mighty]

percentages are typcially point based:

total cost of troop choices / total points of roster

[Iron Warrior]

I wouldn't necesarily penalize someone for a Chappy or Librarian if it their only character. I do like the bonus for a force commander as it would encourage them to use a rarely used choice. I would say the penalty should be if a chappy or librarian shows up as a second character, compounded if it is two of the same. Maybe include a bonus for a certain # of max sized squads.

I did that because rarely ever is a force of space marines led by a chaplain or Librarian unless in extreme conditions where the Force comander has already died in combat.

YOu can take a second character but its going to cost you the bonus you got from the FC and if you take a second 3 wound character its gonna cost you alot more.

As Wolflord commented on, too many times do you see the Librarian and chaplain combo, because its good and not the FC, The special rules for the Chaplain and Librarian are too good for some people to pass up. I wanted to discourage the taking of both 3 wound Chappy and Librarian or take a big hit and I think that reflects this.