Comp for 40k

[Sanguinary]

Always remember though. With comp you are not supposed to have everything on the list covered. Everyone has some flaw in there army. Its ok to get dinged on a couple of items.

[Ranger Dude]

-2 don't have 4 troop selections
-2 don't have 5 troop selections
-2 don't have 6 troop selection
-2 don't have 40% spent on troops

No big here. Yeah it's a bit rough, but not too serious.

-2 don't have your 2 compulsory troop selections at max size

Also not a big deal. Could be tough for a few armies, but not impossible. I do wonder about chaos and sacred numbers.

-2 (up to 10 points) for each "exact" duplicate selection in the army. For example -2 points if you have 2 6 man with las/pls. Note if one had a plas and the other a flamer, no penalty.

This could seriously hurt some armies, espescially in conjunction with the former troops requirements. Look at Necrons. All troops are alike. A well themede alaitoc force has no upgrade options in thier units, so the only difference would be in numbers. Something to think about.

-2 if you took a second HQ choice (space wolves suffer this if they took wargear other than bolter/pistol/close combat weapon)

In general, not a big deal, but I do agree with IW that it's a bit harch on wolf players.

-4 if more than 10% taken form the armory page.

Not a big deal.

-2 don't have a selection from each section of the Force Org chart.

I don't like it, but I could live with it. Tell me though, if you are trying to enforce theme, how does this work. It hurts themes in my opinion. Alaitoc wouldn't take bikes and such. (Just an example from my experience) Like I said, this is a ding I could live with.

Total = 30 points. Another 15 from opponent (voted in private at the head table) and another 15 by judges based on theme, balance and fairness.

This is a decent idea. I like the fact that all angle are covered. The judges and he rubrics can balance out the hosers to some extent.

Just my .02

[colonelellios]

shaun said:

-4 if more than 10% taken form the armory page.

Would that be total for all characters in the list? That might be sort of harsh, but it's likely everyone would get docked on that. Would 'Nid mutations count? If so on which models?

[Catachan Colonel]

shaun said:

here is the brief list:

-2 don't have 4 troop selections
-2 don't have 5 troop selections
-2 don't have 6 troop selection

My only real gripe is how this effects guard armys who dont have doctrines to take cheap troops
to not get a penalty my catachans have a requirement of 18 squads (and most likely a penalty later for the squads matching) even without any wargear added (which would cause a matching violation ) and the army already sizes 150 models (Just to avoid the penalties on troop choices)

I think this needs to be addressed.

[Wolf Lord Snorville]

Do the math on necrons... it's funny


So uhh... with space wolves... is only the second hq shafted... or is the third one shafted also?

[boldo]

Shaun I think there is a bit of a difference of opinion here between us on what comp is suppose to be. I feel comp is like a handicap it should help balance the field and it should be hard to get a maximum comp score. Also the higher ths comp score the lower your battle score should be. I admit I do not really understand 40k and my 2 games is not enough to really give advise but I feel your system is a bit easy and soes not seperate armies enough. This seems like a good starting point but there are ways to make it harder to max out on and this would help make it a better scoring element at a tournament.

Boldo

[Iron Warrior]

Another note...This really doesnt hose those armies out there that we all hate to play. The mega assualt cannon army, the 9 oblits pie plate of doom army, The 200+ feral ork army, The Huge Seer council and trip wave serpent army, the Siren Deamon bomb, tooled up DP's. They can find ways to slip through the cracks and still get good if not perfect comps.

The combination of Max sized cumpulsary troops, 6 troops and 1 from each selection of the force org is really hard to do, not to mention diffrently eqipued? Take Guard for example. Max troop is size is: 300points with NO upgrades and thats 54 models. Fill out 2 of them that 600 BARE bones and we are up to 108 models. Of course no one is going to take 108 guardsmen with only las guns. You start adding heavy weapons and specail weapons in there and this jumps to 1000+ points easily. That only 2 troops choices...HQ you figure 120ish now you have a legal list at 1120points ish. There is no way you can get max comp for a guard army because now you have to get 4 more troop choices, an Elite, a Heavy and a Fast attack (at least not in 1850) never mind about being competitve.

just one example....sad thing is Marines are the BEST to play for this rubric.

[Catachan Colonel]

yes this ruberic favors marines, chaos and Eldar (Eldar the most)

I had once proposed my own comp system, i would argue it is fair and not to good for any force (Others may argue otherwise )

And while i agree perfect comp may not be atainable by all, it should be at least possible for each army book. (Eldar is an army book Saim-han is not)

Comp should generally depower things taken in overabundance while promoting well roundedness. (Tournament missions should then do more of this)

Comp should devalue foe example an all deep strike or an all infiltrate army or any all this no that army, while promoting things like 1 guard platoon with many squads instead of 4 guard platoons at minimum.

It should promote taking the weaker things.

I took my no shooting tyranids or my no shooting Khorne is not good comp (its taking a lot of your best stuff) Neither is taking my no hand to hand Tau.

Taking my army of all shooty bugs or Berzerkers with bolt guns is something to be rewarded.

And while i am not big on the HQ rule you have as stated, i think there are ways to tone down hq without saying take just 1 but make him really really good.

my $0.02 for now off to bed for me, gnite all

[dragons3]

SHAUN:
COLONEL CATACHAN'S COMP. LIST WAS UNDER THE FIRST COYOTE'S DEN OUTING THREAD, SOMEWHERE.
I THOUGHT HE DID A GOOD JOB, CHECK IT OUT, IT'S WORTH A LOOK. EVEN IF YOU DON'T LIKE HOW HE DESIGNED IT, IT'S WORDED WELL AND MAY SAVE YOU SOME TIME ORGANIZING YOUR THOUGHTS.

I THINK HIS COMP CRITERIA FORCES A WELL BALANCED ARMY REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU'RE PLAYING, (UNLESS I MISSED SOMETHING).

P.S. MY SON CHAD THANKS YOU FOR YOUR PARTICIPATION LAST NIGHT IN A GALLANT ATTEMPT IN KICKING OURS BUTTS, (SANGI & DRAGON).

"IT'S MARLEY HIS PERCEPTION OF THE TRUTH" ;D ;D

HAVE A NICE DAY!

[colonelellios]

I agree with Colonel Catachan...

although I must say that I don't know any competitive vanilla Eldar lists that include two max-full compulsory troops--this would be a considerable disadvantage for them (although the comp list does slightly favor Eldar and Dark Eldar I'm not denying it)

heck I don't even own enough guardians to do two full max squads. But I think guardians are a joke anyways.

[Iron Dragon]

I think the rubric you've set up is very reflective of our system of warhammering. it would be easy to change 1 thing in my standard army list to get a perfect score. with marines, sisters, my Chaos when they were up, and a lot of armies that i see at the store.

i haven't seen an army in a long time that didn't have 40% troops.

the wargear restriction i think might be beter set as a cap than a little 'slap' of -2. maybe a -4 would make it more of a detterent.

as far as i know... our thesis on the comp subject is a troops heavy, lightly wargeared army with a lot of flavor and variety in the other selections that reflects the set theme of the army.

the blood angels armies with more lascannons than jump troops for example...

but simply setting up a troop/wargear rubric doesn't adequately adress this idea of what we expect from our players.

[shaun]

I have to reply that you are all seeing the glass as half empty. Do you really think that I would not be altering my "brief" list as posted to not significantly hose armies to the extreme? You are all reading into the fact that those small Rubics aren't going to be accommodated for specific armies (ie troop size requirement for guard and sacred numbers for chaos cults). Perhaps if you had all gone to as many GT's you would remember that this was always done.

I have to admit that I am angry with many of the responses. Opinions are OK, but should only be put in an "objective" manner. Many of you are complaining about how it "doesn't work" instead of positive constructive critisism. Give me some credit. As I stated that was a "brief" listing because people wanted to know what it was going to be. I do not fully agree with the commity approach to developing comp or running a tournament. I have discussed running tournaments with the previous GT organizers, had conversations with other clubs and of course been involved in several of these large events. THERE WILL NOT BE A PERFECT COMP SYSTEM! But I have seen what has been most effective for our "desired" style of play in a simplified less-offensive manner.

Alex, yes we disagree on how the tournament should be setup/run. Since it is being forced to be a "community approach" to the setup/design, I don't believe I am the person to be involved. I unfortunatly don't have the time or desire to deal with what appears to be complicated issues. I am officially stepping down but will offer assistance to whomever does run the tournament. Please realize that I am not just being "petty" in regards to the previous posts, I really just don't want to spend a lot of time "debating" issues.

See everyone at the store soon.

***Edit*** This post was started prior to many of the recent posts. The tone at the time was based on the previous posts.

[Hagbard The Mighty]

colonelellios said:

heck I don't even own enough guardians to do two full max squads. But I think guardians are a joke anyways.

Eldar have more than guardians as troop choices. I can do a full unit of guardians with Star Cannon, Warlock and a full unit of Dire Avengers - just under 400 pts. And I don't feel hosed.

Hell, I could just do 2 full units of Avengers.

[dragons3]

SHAUN, YOUR THE RIGHT PERSON TO RUN THIS, YOU HAVE THE FINAL SAY AND EVERYONE WHO HAS RESPONDED POSITIVELY OR NEGATIVELY WILL END UP PLAYING ANYWAYS.
TAKE THESE COMMENTS AS AN AID NOT HINDRANCE, EVERYONE WANTS TO HELP ONE WAY OR ANOTHER, SO GIVE THEM SOMETHING TO AND KEEP THEM OUT OF YOUR HAIR, MAKE A LIST OF TASKS WITH A SIGN UP SHEET.

THE RESPONSE IS BECAUSE YOU'RE WELL KNOWN & RESPECTED, YOU'RE "THE MIGHTY BLOOD THURST" IT GOS WITH THE TERRITORY. YOU SHOULD RE-TRACK THE POSTING BECAUSE NO ONE ELSE WILL DRAW AS MANY PEOPLE AND GET AS MUCH SUPPORT AS YOU.

MY FATHER OWNED A CARVEL STORE YEARS AGO, AND BELIEVE ME IN HIS STORE "THE CUSTOMER WASN'T ALWAYS RIGHT".


HAVE A NICE DAY!

[colonelellios]

hagbard said:

colonelellios said:

heck I don't even own enough guardians to do two full max squads. But I think guardians are a joke anyways.

Eldar have more than guardians as troop choices. I can do a full unit of guardians with Star Cannon, Warlock and a full unit of Dire Avengers - just under 400 pts. And I don't feel hosed.

Hell, I could just do 2 full units of Avengers.

Yes I thought about those things, and the idea of comp would be to *require* the full units. I realize this.

I was just stating that it's a minor disadvantage, of course it wouldn't hose an army.

My intention was only to point out that requiring things like full troops choices is more of a hinderance to certain armies (marines, chaos, eldar) and a boon to others (tau, necrons). That's all.

Shaun I don't think anyone was saying literally "this comp list is crap." I'm not of that opinion and I don't think anyone else is. We realize it was only a quick writeup you provided in your free time, and thank you because we were all very curious, and relish the opportunity to discuss our favorite hobby while at work/school.

I respect your decision to step down, but I must say I don't think anyone else is more qualified to create a comp list for the Boldo's tournament. Perhaps a "list of grievences" with current comp systems would help, instead of going back and forth with people on message boards? I'm sure you've heard it all before anyways.

So if Shaun relinquishes the reigns, who will step in? What exactly is the goal?