Proposed DaBoyz GT 2010

[danpearson]

Horst,

I like the cut of your jib! I think I may used a variation of your "layered comp" for the next RT. I guess I never thought practically about pairing up the cheese with the cheese.....make sense though. The only modification I would make is to keep a low number for comp in general, but use excell to invert the number into a high one (say you get a 10 on comp out of 40.....excell would take 40 minus comp score [10 in this case] and add the remainder [30] to a battle-points and then pair the rounds...)

good suggestion

-Dan Pearson

[chumbalaya]

I don't think my army with Belial and Sammael could even possibly be considered cheesy, or even hard. It's Dark Angels for crying out loud

Not all fluffy lists are equal either. A vulkan list with meltas and flamers is fluffy because it fits the Salamanders' style. A mechdar army is fluffy. Green Tide is fluffy. Deathraven is fluffy. IG Armorspam is fluffy (for an armored company of course). Eldrad and Maugan Ra are fluffy together. A Necron phalanx is fluffy too, but terribad. Fire Warrior hordes are fluffy, but garbage. Bug swarms are fluffy, but even worse.

It's these kinds of arbitrary restrictions that fuel my dislike for comp in general.

[Horst]

green tide IS fluffy, but most players use green tide with a kan wall or something... which makes it harder. green tide by itself isn't that hard to kill.

a vulkan list with meltas and flamers isn't that hard to kill... its hard when they stack 6+ multimelta bikers and then 2 land raiders full of hammer terminators.

IG Armorspam is fluffy, and not that hard to kill, unless you stack every chimera with melta vets so you can't get close to them with your vehicles.

Eldrad and Maugan Ra are fluffy together, but not when in the same unit as 10 wraithguard... Ra should be with a unit of aspect warriors, Eldrad should be with guardians.


you can do a fluffy army with all these lists without being broken. its when you take only the best possible choices in these lists that it goes over the top

[chumbalaya]

Is it really though?

Green Tide + Kanwall means they have virtually no firepower so mech armies roll over them. KFF or no, squadrons of AV11 vehicles are not hard to bring down. What's so odd about a Big Mek showing off his newest creations, it's not his fault the Grots inside are still doing their old jobs: screening da boyz

Vulkan armies give up combat tactics and if they go all melta they lack any long ranged firepower. You'd think the Forgefather would be the first guy they give Land Raiders and Terminator Armor to

If you take nothing but melta Vets, you've got no long range firepower and if you want to shoot out without jumping into the open, it's a surprisingly short range considering where the fire points are. What if their a siege regiment, designed to rapidly close and break down fortresses? There aren't any regiments like that, in the whole galaxy?

Maugan Ra sees death, Eldrad does too, so they bring along the Wraithguard to prevent any more Eldar lives from being lost. Such a unit costs around 800 points for footsloggers who fold the second a powerfist finds its way there.

Anything can be fluffy and nothing is so strong that it breaks the game.

[skyth]

Dec 1, 2009 23:37:10 GMT -5 Horst said:

Eldrad and Maugan Ra are fluffy together, but not when in the same unit as 10 wraithguard... Ra should be with a unit of aspect warriors, Eldrad should be with guardians.

Just a note - Maugan Ra is famous for his help in the defence of the Illyandria (I hope I spelled that right) craftworld from the 'nids...That craftworld is the one famous for it's reliance on the Ghost Warriors (Wraithlord/guards).

[Horst]

look, I know you can justify anything with fluff. its easy. however, just because you can justify something doesn't mean you should take it.

Honestly, a dual nob biker list with 20 nob bikers and 2 warbosses can be justified as well, but does that mean we should take it too?

I'm just saying, you can use any theme army you want, without making it overpowered.

[chumbalaya]

Sure I can justify anything, half the fun is making up reasons for why your army all shows up together. At least, it is for Orks anyway. What bugs me is the subjective nature of what's OP and what isn't, same with whether something is fluffy. One man's fodder is another's cheesy doom army and all that.

To me, Nob Bikers aren't overpowered. It's one dimensional and hella gimmicky army, but far from unbeatable by a competent player with a balanced army. I think it's a cool list, it would be fun making a Gork's Angels style biker army if I had the time or skillz to do up leather jackets and helmets for everyone

And there's still the issue of why my army with 20 Termies and 9 Bikes is bannable but a Vulkan army is

EDIT: And please note, I'm not trying to piss anybody off or step on toes or whatever. I really want to see this event be great and I'd love to be a part of it. If that means I have to play devil's advocate to give people another perspective, then I'll do it. Poking holes in stuff and figuring out what does and doesn't work is the best way to make it better.

[skyth]

I've tried that for years...All it does is get me ignored and/or attacked.

[Iron Warrior]

I am glad to see all the posts and intrest about our GT.

But I think some people are missing the point there. Courtney and SoB have touched upon the topic a few times. Da Boyz GT reflects the way this community plays. And that way is an all encompassing view which doesnt focus on one aspect of the game (mainly winning). It doesnt mean we are not competitive however.

The Cheese vs Fluff debates has been around since comp has been around. You can try to validate what ever lists you like with what ever fluff you want but anyone worth thier salt and has years of experience under thier belt can go from table to table and pick and choose which lists were built to win and which lists were built for fun. Heck I can even go up to some armies and pick out the ones that were built "just becuase its what I had in my box at the time". You know whats out there form reading the gazillion websites, white dwarfs, battle reports, playing games, watching games played, tournements. Everyone eventually picks up on whats effective vs whats not as effective, eventually.

Since it was brought up, the 20 termie 9 bike list. That list is a gimik army set for a quick win if it can pull it off fast enough. Your gonna face armys out there that can handle it and some that just cant. Is it fluffy? Not really....sure you could make a write up saying what you like to justify your selections you choose. But Im going to come back with quesitons like this:

1.) Why only choose Deathwing and Ravenwing? Wheres the "Dark Angels"?
2.) Can you refrence any fiction where only Ravenwing and Deathwing fought without there Dark Angel Marines? (I cant and I have read alot, but I could be mistaken)
3.) What made you decide to take the units you did with the combinations of weapons you did?
4.) When you first started wrinting your list, what did you ask yourself or say when you pictured the army? For example: I want to make a list that tough hard to beat and will sledgehammer my opponents before they know what hits them. How do I acomplish this with said codex? What units do I take to acomplish this task?
Am I going to win with this list? What are going to be my trouble spots (Armor, Swarms etc..)? You know your typical questions you ask when building a good solid list. Did you ask yourself these questions?
5.) Where do you think your weakness lie in the list, if any?
6.) Would this be a typical "<insert codex or army type>" List?
-For the example above: Dark Angels, Deathwing, Ravenwing, would be your appropiate selections.
7.) Why do -you- think you built this list.

Fluff and comp is a burden place upon the player. They can take the ball and run with it, drop kick it and forget it, or possibly run to the 50 and spike it there. Its the players choice and burden to prove to the players/judges tha tyour list is compy. Its up to whomever is judging comp to figure out if that player is full of S@#T or not.

hehehe, I ammuse myself. Glad to see you all posting!

And Skyth...Just so you dont feel ignored....Shut up you whiney B!tch! (that was a joke)

[MajorSoB]

Dec 2, 2009 12:39:39 GMT -5 chumbalaya said:

And there's still the issue of why my army with 20 Termies and 9 Bikes is bannable but a Vulkan army is

To answer your question about your dual character build, it goes like this. We acknowledge that one named character is essential to some armies (like Belial to allow you to play Deathwing) and this is the reason one named character is allowed. The problem is that when you stray away from a pure Deathwing army ( termies, landraiders, and dreadies) then draw in Ravenwing with bikes and speeders, we understand why. It's a gimmick. Move the speeders with their homers forward on the scout move, drop in the termies, move the homers closer and drop more termies; really not a very creative or fun list to play, and that is why the aversion. I do agree that Sammeil doesnt really offer much more to your list but if we allow you two named characters it opens the door for the ugly special rules combos. A list of Ravenwing and Deathwing doesn't comp well ( right Gabe! ) because it works on a gimmick and only uses a few pages of the codex. However a DA army with 1/3 DA, 1/3 Deathwing and 1/3 Ravenwing would comp very well. Hopefully you can understand better from my explanation.

Dec 2, 2009 13:36:02 GMT -5 skyth said:

I've tried that for years...All it does is get me ignored and/or attacked.

...and like an abused little brother you keep coming back for more! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[skyth]

Dec 2, 2009 16:32:31 GMT -5 Iron Warrior said:

2.) Can you refrence any fiction where only Ravenwing and Deathwing fought without there Dark Angel Marines? (I cant and I have read alot, but I could be mistaken)

Try the Dark Angel's codex...

the Ravenwing might locate a concentration of targets...At this point they will call in the Deathwing, who will teleport from orbiting spacecraft.

No mention of other companies being involved...As these are the two companies that know about the Fallen.

[Horst]

skyth, we all know that the codex is the worst possible place to find fluff. don't try quoting that POS here.

[skyth]

Heh...

That being said, you could field a doublewing army with only one special character if you wanted. You don't have to have the Special Character for them to be fielded at all, only for them to be fielded as Troops.

I really don't like the new trend of requiring special characters to field certain armies though...I much perfered the Traits, etc...

[Horst]

Agree with that, man.

The space wolf codex has the right idea with sagas... much cooler than simply creating cookie cutter heroes.

[skyth]

To an extent, the SW codex does the same thing with Logan's ability to make all Wolf Guard troops.