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Post by Horst on Dec 5, 2009 1:15:32 GMT -5
Its the year final tournament at millenium... I'd just like to say, I'm sorry. you all will know why after tomorrow  edit.... nevermind, even I am disgusted at the list I was thinking of bringing... I toned it down. |
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Post by chumbalaya on Dec 5, 2009 8:51:48 GMT -5
Good luck to everyone.
Bring the pain.
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Post by shilekjalan on Dec 5, 2009 13:07:31 GMT -5
Greetings Brothers,
About this tourney at Millenium, does anyone actually have solid information on it? I am asking because their website says nothing relevant about it besides that it is going to be Fantasy. So, if anything knows information about things like: points total, composition/sportsmanship/painting scores (like actually having one), rules regarding Dogs of War and other things like that I would love it if someone would let me know.
Also, if anyone knows how many people are invited and how many people are actually coming, that would be nice to know too. Thanks again for anyone who can help.
Courage and Honour,
Ave Imperator
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Post by chumbalaya on Dec 5, 2009 13:53:41 GMT -5
I didn't go to any beyond 1 40k one this year (work and school suck), but from my understanding the Fantasy one is 1800 points (wonder why I didn't go?  ) and the people who won the last ones all year are invited. |
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Post by shilekjalan on Dec 5, 2009 14:33:35 GMT -5
I didn't go to any beyond 1 40k one this year (work and school suck), but from my understanding the Fantasy one is 1800 points (wonder why I didn't go? ) and the people who won the last ones all year are invited. Greetings Brothers, That is good. 1800 is a rather confused number of points to have for a Fantasy tournament, it does not make any sense, but still it is okay. Thank you for the help brother Chumba! If you find out anything else, I would love to hear it. Courage and Honour, Ave Imperator |
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Post by skyth on Dec 5, 2009 15:11:21 GMT -5
My understanding is that is because the people running the tourney don't play fantasy Sports - Last tournament they just gave out a prize...Nothing to score it by. Comp/Painting - Supposedly it was scored ,but no idea on the value of it. |
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Post by Krusty (zack) on Dec 5, 2009 20:03:57 GMT -5
or they dont make it such a big deal as other tournaments because of the whining it causes by a few of the people that happen to play?
but chances are people that dont agree with it will still play regardless, and then find time to complain about it afterward...
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Post by travis on Dec 7, 2009 0:57:57 GMT -5
I apologize for any confusion about the upcoming Fantasy Finals event. We are doing some site updates recently and the link to our event layouts got moved. It should be back up soon. Our Painting/Comp/Sportsmanship matrix is on the sidebar listed as GW Tournament Scoring .
This weeks event player's needed to qualify for in a previous tourney. There is no entry fee for those who qualify, we feed any of the player's that attend lunch and payout the same prizes that we would payout for a paid event.
This year was the first time that we ran this kind of tournament series. It took a bunch of trial and error, as well as player feedback to get it to where it is. Our system is far from perfect. The points that we used are based on player feedback as well as time constraints. The comp/sports/painting matrix was set-up by a group of player's with varying experience levels as well as some feedback from GW reps. When we were coming up with the matrix, there was an open invitation to any player's that wanted to attend, to weigh in their opinion.
We are always interested in hearing any issues that player's have about our events. We only ask that you couple the critique with solutions if possible. We will continue to make improvements on the way things are done based on player feedback.
Based on the success of this year's tournament series, we will start running the next one in January. We may tweak the points, we make tweak the comp based on player feedback. It will always be held the second Saturday of the month. Sign-ups will 9am with a 10am start time. The only exception being in October. With Daboyz GT being the week after our scheduled event, we will not run an event that month. Feel free to poat any additional questions or concerns.
Thanks
Travis
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Post by Horst on Dec 7, 2009 1:18:07 GMT -5
awww, you should run a tournament the week before the daboyz GT, at the same points level, so we can test our lists!
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Post by chumbalaya on Dec 7, 2009 8:42:35 GMT -5
Hey travis, I really appreciate y'all running these tournies, I know it takes all kinda of time and effort to set a bunch of nerds up to play dollies with each other and give them prizes for best dolly  I wish I had been able to attend more, but school and work rarely give me any free time, which sucks. What's this you say about a rules meeting or whatever? Are they doing one this year too? I'd love to help out if at all possible. As far as my thoughts, as an outsider looking in, 1800 points just feels weird to me. Kinda like playing a 40k event but disallowing Heavy Support. Lords are awesome, a huge part of any army. Some armies need Lords to work, like BoC (Ld issues), TK (a right mess, that book), O&G (Ld again), OK (magic and Ld), and so on. I play Skaven, so I'd be totally cool without Lords, probably even better off considering I won't have any uber facebeaters to worry about (and I can fit a Furnace, Censers, weapon teams and A-Bomb no problem). Daemons, Dark Elves, High Elves, Bretonnians, WoC, Vampires and Dwarfs should do ok without Lords, HE in particular considering they get 1 required Core and extra Special/Rare plus Hero dragons, Dwarfies can knock out magic defense without spending a point considering most armies cap at 8 PD barring Tzeentch Daemons or magic items, Brets get an extra Hero, and WoC/VC/Daemons/DE are plenty beefy without super Lords. Seems like a balancing act that doesn't really balance anything, just makes the hard armies harder and the weak armies weaker. As for the 40k tourney, some more terrain would be most useful. If need be, ask everyone to make some and bring in their own (maybe a terrain-building event or something beforehand?). Or just have courtney do it Just my thoughts |
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Post by Norton on Dec 7, 2009 11:33:38 GMT -5
Personally, i rather prefer the change to go to 1800 points over the initial 2k+ we had played.
Removing the chance to play 2 rares and the high levels of magic that come with a level4 mage has toned down the caliber of armies that show up to play. I do remember the first event where i counted no less then 5 dragon lords amongst the 15 or so players...
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Post by shilekjalan on Dec 7, 2009 12:18:24 GMT -5
I apologize for any confusion about the upcoming Fantasy Finals event. We are doing some site updates recently and the link to our event layouts got moved. It should be back up soon. Our Painting/Comp/Sportsmanship matrix is on the sidebar listed as GW Tournament Scoring . This weeks event player's needed to qualify for in a previous tourney. There is no entry fee for those who qualify, we feed any of the player's that attend lunch and payout the same prizes that we would payout for a paid event. This year was the first time that we ran this kind of tournament series. It took a bunch of trial and error, as well as player feedback to get it to where it is. Our system is far from perfect. The points that we used are based on player feedback as well as time constraints. The comp/sports/painting matrix was set-up by a group of player's with varying experience levels as well as some feedback from GW reps. When we were coming up with the matrix, there was an open invitation to any player's that wanted to attend, to weigh in their opinion. We are always interested in hearing any issues that player's have about our events. We only ask that you couple the critique with solutions if possible. We will continue to make improvements on the way things are done based on player feedback. Based on the success of this year's tournament series, we will start running the next one in January. We may tweak the points, we make tweak the comp based on player feedback. It will always be held the second Saturday of the month. Sign-ups will 9am with a 10am start time. The only exception being in October. With Daboyz GT being the week after our scheduled event, we will not run an event that month. Feel free to poat any additional questions or concerns. Thanks Travis Greetings, The main thing I was interested in knowing was if composition actually mattered, along with painting and sportsmanship. That is my critique, that they should actually matter. It should not just be about winning, that is for magic players, warhammer is more then just winning ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D As for a solution, what about these: -a pop quiz based upon easy and hard questions on the background of the warhammer universe -a army comp chart that is posted online and the players know will be followed and will have a big effect on the game -the same for painting -the same for sportsmanship If that is done, it will make it obvious that not all that matters is beating your opponents at any cost. In other words, lets have a tournament where it is run based on The Most Important Rule (the one in the rulebook about having fun). I hope this helps! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Courage and Honour, Ave Imperator |
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Post by chumbalaya on Dec 7, 2009 12:48:22 GMT -5
Meh, 1800 isn't my bag. I'm sure I could make a nasty Daemon or Skaven army for it, but I think Lords add a lot to the game. Might be fun for a few, but it feels like something would be missing.
I'd also like BP and Sports/Paints/Comp to be separate, so everybody gets to enjoy themselves. I play for fun, and fun for me is a challenging game against a strong opponent and a solid list. I find the best way to improve is to go head to head against the strongest and learn from the experience, win or lose. Pulling punches cheapens the experience for me, but that's obviously not a universal feeling. Encouraging people to come, whatever their preference of play, would be best I think. If need be, match up hard armies against hard armies and soft on soft so nobody gets stuck playing an unenjoyable game.
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Post by travis on Dec 8, 2009 13:47:04 GMT -5
Again, I appreciate all feedback. So I will try to address each concern.
Player meeting- We are looking at putting together another player meeting the first week of January. The soft date is Tuesday, January 5th, at 6:30. Our first series tournament is that Saturday. So any changes will not come in to play for that tournament.
1800 point fantasy games - We chose this number for a couple reasons. These are not in order of importance.
1. Find a net list for an 1800 point fantasy army.
2. Eliminates lord choices. I realize that this hampers some armies. The armies that it hurts are all armies that are getting or need a new army book. With the exception of Orks and Goblins they are also the least popular armies in our store.
3. It gives you more points to work with then 1500 and cuts down on the round time.
Terrain- The last 6 or so events, a few player's have brought a table or two of terrain. We haven't had any recent issues with our tables. That was an issue that we address due to feedback in our first few tourneys. Each month I am getting a table or two worth of terrain for the store specifically. Hopefully by March, I will have enough terrain for 10 tables. These will be stored separate from the terrain that is piled up in the back of the store.
Comp/Sports/Painting - Our matrix for these are on our website. Feel free to let me know what should or could be adjusted to make these soft score points matter more. I look at it as a living document that is there to be tweaked based on the current gaming environment. Any suggestions will be taken into consideration.
Pop quizzes- We have used these in tourneys before. It just feels like I am giving a veteran player an additional edge over a new player. Now not only are you getting the difference in games that you have played against a new player, your also getting the additional time that you spent in the hobby. Not to say that all vet player's no all or any of the fluff.
Army comp - It's posted in our matrix online. I don't like army comp scores to be available to the player's. As has been mentioned before in other threads, player's will just come up with a beardy army that gets around the comp scoring system. Ours is posted so that the new player can see what he may get dinged on. The last thing that I want to happen is for a new player to show up with something that he thought was awesome and then get hammered in comp without knowing.
Beardy, Toothy, 'Ard, and Cheesy - I completely respect people that take the rules of the game, their army book and personal knowledge of strategy and build the best list possible given the resources they have available. In fact the rules of this game allow you to do it. Games Workshop doesn't have a comp/sports/painting matrix.
In fact, the first couple of years that I worked at the store I tooled on guys that wanted these things for their events. Saying things like "what your own rules aren't good enough" and "well that's your interpretation of a broken list and who are you, but the guy that just got his butt kicked by it".
I come from a card player/board gamer background. The games that I played often, were games where people spent countless hours, pouring over cards, to make sure that they were as balanced, in their current environment, as possible. All these cards where not made during the same time period. Some rules where changed and abilities were added, making some cards better and some cards worse. The fundamentals of the game however, stayed the same. In fantasy and 40k this is not the case. The changes in editions can be vast. Crippling some codices and making some better.
One of the big problems we ran into in card tournaments were the same guys winning every week. We would get groups of new player's in and they would get trounced by the vet player's and never be seen again. Like in life, some people catch on quicker and some people never catch on. Consistently being pounded will occasionally make you stronger but will also drive you into other more comfortable areas. So we have novice tourneys or themed tourneys to help with this.
Business wise the more player's for a game we have, the better we are doing. From a player perspective, the more player's, the more games, the more tourneys, the more prize support and ultimately the more friends you make while doing something you like.
I like to win at games as much as everyone else. My life is not defined by the wins and losses that I have in a particular game. It's my responsibility, to make sure that my opponents enjoy the experience as much as I do, whether I am winning or losing. That doesn't mean that I need to do magic tricks for them if I am kicking his butt. It means that I should carry myself, as a player, the same way that I do in defeat as in victory.
My main goal in hosting tournaments is to make the event accessible for player's of all skill levels and experience. If we make painting scores a huge deal the new guy just doesn't show up. I want player's to be a part of this community as soon as possible. I still want them to paint their models. I am not going to hammer on a guy if he doesn't get a chance to paint his stuff because he's going to school or working.
Playing with the same 4 guys week in and week out gets boring fast. If you like to play 'Ard lists no doubt you can find someone that also likes to play those type of games. Feel free to pound the snot out of each other. I also realize that some of the player's that are learning the game now, will like playing that way. Trying to learn the game strictly from that perspective, makes for a very steep learning curve. If all games were played that way it would hurt the hobby more then it would help. 'Ard Boyz and other tourneys cater to that play style and I am glad they do. Everyone should get to play the type of game they want to play.
I hope I touched on everything. edited for spacing.
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Post by shilekjalan on Dec 8, 2009 16:28:24 GMT -5
Greetings Brothers,
It seems to me that how it works is winning is what matters to some people. They forget that Warhammer is not only about winning. Spending hours and hours painting your models to perfection is part of the hobby too. Assembling your models in the most hilarious/dramatic/interesting positions and converting them is part of the hobby. Reading the books, army books and rulebooks to know more about the Warhammer universe is part of the hobby. Being an honourable player is part of the hobby (telling your opponent when he forgets to move units for example, not cheating for example, you get the picture). Designing armies based on something other then how to beat your opponent without him putting up a fight at all is part of the hobby. Making sure your opponent has fun is part of the hobby.
Warhammer is more then just winning, it is hobby and a culture, not just some silly game.
My brothers!!!!! If winning is all that matters, then there is so much you are missing out on. The first paragraph I wrote, it is so incredible! Warhammer is amazing and once you open your eyes and see all the things there are besides just beating your opponent and doing math hammer, you will be like a new man! REally! Besides, the victories are so much sweeter when you accomplish them using "crappy" troops, the victories are so much more worth it, they make you feel an even better general! I say this as a brother who went through this experience and now am much to the better because of it. WArhammer is an incredibly amazing hobby and there is so much more then just loading up on the Cheddar and getting chased by mice! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Courage and Honour,
Ave Imperator
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) and the people who won the last ones all year are invited. 
I wish I had been able to attend more, but school and work rarely give me any free time, which sucks.