@ Tommy/CC

[hyv3mynd]

Ok so I've been stewing about this and need to get it off my chest. After that, I'm over it. It's just a game and I don't hold grudges.

Today @ Boldos tourney, you dinged me 1 point in sports which cost me 1st place. I think you better check yourself in the future. Here's why:

1. You didn't bring a list that I could look at.
2. Your rhinos weren't WYSIWYG.
3. In combination of #1 and #2, you didn't mention they had "extra armor" until after I fired at, penetrated, "stunned", gave you your turn, and then asked why they were still moving.
4. When your HQ deathstar assaulted mine, you took 4 pw wounds from my tyrant and rolled 4 invulns which you failed before allocating. When I noted that you didn't allocate, you gave yourself rerolls which you passed all of. In (sorta)fairness, you still took out 2 models because you felt bad, but it still changed the outcome of combat and potentially the whole game.
5. We discussed the ruins and terrain for objective purposes, but said nothing of "roads" which were nothing more than indentations on the table with no different color, texture, or painting of lines denoting them as roads. They only became roads when you were able to blitz my objective in the final turn of the game.
6. You turn around and ding me 1 point in sportsmanship which cost me first place for... why now? At this point, I've participated in 4 tourneys and never been dinged sports or comp until today! Was I a thingy somehow?

/Rant off

PM me if you don't feel like posting.

Aaron

[Horst]

I don't know anything about the circumstances of your game with tom, and I haven't played him enough to weigh in on one side or the other, but this is why sportsmanship should NOT be player judged.

when you end up loosing a tournament by a single, subjective point score, it causes all kinds of hard feelings afterwards.

[Iron Warrior]

In reply to Horst:

Sportsmanship must be judged by your opponent. Infact its the only score that cannot be taken out of the hands of the players. You cannot have Sportsmanship judged by Tournament judges as we cant babysit every game to make sure everyone is playing by the rules and being nice. And if your suggesting Sportsmanship be removed from tournements....well Thats an entirely other topic right up there with people who want to remove comp too. Any system to judge comp and or sports is going to be subjective in someones eyes. YOu can either make the best of what it is or moan and complain about it. I know which one you will make more friends with.

@ Aaron
This was just a quick throw together system for a simple sunday tournement just to have fun. The scoring for sports was simple 3/2/1 3 being the best, a really memorable game, fun, laughed, hooted, hollarded. 2 Being an average game, still fun but nothing memorable. And 1 being a poor game. I dont think anyone got 1s for sports infact almost everyone averages a 3 for the whole tournement.

His score was fair and here is why I think so. His other opponents he scored max sports for. So I dont think it was to slieght you in any means for first place.

On a side note, probably a more appropiate and gentlmen like way to have gone about this was to PM tommy with your grievences instead of publicly posting it. It seems like your trying to make some sort of negative point.

I apologize if this scoring system or your opponents cause you not to have an enjoyable time this sunday and I hope you would give it another chance and come on back for the next one and perhaps have better games and experiences.

Over all it seemed like people enjoyed themselves.

Ron.

[Horst]

well, i'm for removing sportsmanship altogether... though comp is alright if its not player judged. I just don't like people I play against to have the ability to tank my score if they lost and are upset about it, or if I was tired that day and didn't put on a one man show for them.

putting a subjective score in the hands of opponents is never a good thing. for example, I generally am of the opinion that nobody deserves a perfect score for comp, 99% of the time. This contrasts with all the people out there who give out max comp scores at tournaments. anyone unlucky enough to draw 3 people like me have a huge disadvantage over someone who gets 3 people who just toss out 100% scores.

an impartial judge, as long as he plays by the same rules for everyone involved, can eliminate this problem by scoring everyone the same way. If this means sportsmanship can't be docked by anyone but judges, thats fine by me (each time a judge is called for a rules dispute, for example, he should be able to tell if one of the players is being an ass, and dock a point or two from his sportsmanship, if you still want to use it).

[hyv3mynd]

Ron & Steve, I understand everyone's points of view as stated above and thanks for taking the time and energy to host the tourney.

I hope you understand also my point of view and place in the local community. I've only been playing since March. I visited MG on several occasions talking to staff and players about the community, the game, the costs, etc. Mike/Abulp introduced me to the forum where I started learning about aspects beyond dice rolling like painting, comp, and sportsmanship.

TBH, in spending hundreds of dollars and hundreds of hours painting, my biggest concern was potentially losing a tourney because of the units I chose and not how I played. I understand the need for comp as I would not want to play a game against anyone using triplicate of powerful units.

It's not even that big of a deal. It was a 6 man tournament. I just took it very personally that I brought a list with more points in troops than any other FO, no duplicate or triplicates... and I lost points in "comp". Even more confusing to me that in a previous tourney, someone used 3 tervigons and got full comp.

I was dinged in sportsmanship by a vastly more experienced player that didn't bring a list, didn't explain to me their unit upgrades, didn't stick with dice rolls, and didn't use proper wound allocation/armor save order.

So now I feel bad for even calling him on it because had I not said anything at all, that one point could have given me first in a tourney where I had no losses and the guy I beat in round #1 ended up taking first from me. I could care less about the prize money. I would like to take first at somepoint and I know it may happen someday. It is upsetting however, to explain to your friends who didn't play that you were the only player with no losses, but took 2nd because people didn't like my list or the way I played.

[Catachan Colonel]

Jun 6, 2010 18:19:31 GMT -5 @hyv3mynd said:

Today @ Boldos tourney, you dinged me 1 point in sports which cost me 1st place. I think you better check yourself in the future. Here's why:

1. You didn't bring a list that I could look at.
2. Your rhinos weren't WYSIWYG.
3. In combination of #1 and #2, you didn't mention they had "extra armor" until after I fired at, penetrated, "stunned", gave you your turn, and then asked why they were still moving.

5. We discussed the ruins and terrain for objective purposes, but said nothing of "roads" which were nothing more than indentations on the table with no different color, texture, or painting of lines denoting them as roads. They only became roads when you were able to blitz my objective in the final turn of the game.
6. You turn around and ding me 1 point in sportsmanship which cost me first place for... why now? At this point, I've participated in 4 tourneys and never been dinged sports or comp until today! Was I a thingy somehow?


Aaron

Not alot of time to reply but here is some.
1) It was downstairs, my bad, i can still send it to you if you want.
2) Correct my rhinos didnt have the smoke launchers or searchlights that are standard equipment modeled. All pay for options were displayed.
3)Didnt mention it because it was clearly modeled.


Notice the model on the right (which i used) is larger bulkier and has armor over exaust and other exposed points. The smaller less armored rhino was not used because of WYSIWYG


For contrast notice the razorbacks. I used the less armored one on the left. Notice the exposed area where crew could get gacked by incoming fire. To the right is an unused fully extra armored razorback. Notice no exposed crew and the greater vehicle bulk of the extra armor.

5) We didnt discuss the clearly seen roads on the table which indeed ARE painted and textured diffrent. And wow just like the city we live into day none of the buildings were in any of those "roads". In spite of your implication, they did not become roads at any point during the later game. They were always roads. It may have seemed that way because my razorback that stayed in the open on the road the whole game firing didn't use the road "rule" til late game when movement was more important than a TL Las Cannon shot.

I assumed we discussed the ruins/buildings to decide how to play them. (as ruins or buildings) There is only one ruleset for roads. We also did not discuss the clear terrain was i wrong in using that too?

6) I dinged no one! I gave you average marks for an average game. Pardon me if you feel entitled to "BONUS" points for just playing the game.

Nate in game one earned bonus points for going above and beyond to make it a great game for both of us. He could have stayed inside his wave serpents and picked off the easy kill rhinos and then fled with one greater kill point than i had. Instead he tactically poorly got out and exposed himself to nearby far superior marine HTH squads.
Shaun simillarily could have split and hid on objectives but instead assaulted me with his scoring units even after he had killed all mine and i could never hold a single objective.
Both those players went above and beyond at a possible cost in the match. (and in Nate's case he did lose)

You gave a nice long rant of things i did wrong in our game but I never objected to the score you gave me. (i even respected the privacy of what was supposed to be a secretly given score).

No where in your rant did you explain why you earned any "BONUS" points from me. You just invaded the privacy of what was supposed to be scores given in confidence to the judge. Then confused giving an average game an average score with me somehow dinging you and suggesting you were a "thingy. As if you are entitled to a perfect score.

You were only a "Thingy" later for looking at the confidential scores after the game, and then again for making this a public post instead of a private message.

[Iron Warrior]

an impartial judge, as long as he plays by the same rules for everyone involved, can eliminate this problem by scoring everyone the same way. If this means sportsmanship can't be docked by anyone but judges, thats fine by me (each time a judge is called for a rules dispute, for example, he should be able to tell if one of the players is being an ass, and dock a point or two from his sportsmanship, if you still want to use it).

@ Horst
Im sorry but this is a completely ludicris idea. This taxes the judge with not only extra book keeping, this allows people to be complete jerks so long as there are no rules disccusions that require a judge. And what about those people that just simply forgot the rules and needed to ask. Sundays tournement would be completely diffrent if I had to dock sportsman ship ever time I was asked a rules question and mostly everyone would have lost 1-3 points during the whole tournament and some even more so. I would have negative sportsmanship scores.

If you leave everything in the judges hands, Sports and Comp your going to get people complaining about how the judge scored it vs the opponent. Sportsmanship is How you play the game, how you act and react to you opponent as a gamer. I refuse to sit by every table to babysit 15-40 year olds to make sure they are being nice to one another. At some point in this game You as a player have to take some responsability into your own hands and be mature about it (or dont).

you cannot have Judge based Sportsmanship. It makes no sense.

[hyv3mynd]

Thanks for the clarifications tommy. I guess I just assumed the rhinos were newer\older models that were inherently different sizes. I have several 2nd edition rhinos and I know they are considerably smaller than the new ones. I guess I was looking for modelled extra plates like the land raider kits have or at least a heads up before the game. That's why I go over my units and bimorphs with all my opponents as I'm deploying as well as provide copies of my lists that I even offer to let my opponents keep to avoid those types of "gotcha" situations. I fired at the rhino, stunned it, and chose different targets after that being confident it wasn't going to move so not knowing about the upgrade changed the course of the game.

I guess my view of sportsmanship is different from others. If making poor tactical decisions makes a good sport, than ding me. It's a tournament not casual play so my choices will be made with winning as my priority. I still always let my oppomemt decide whether or not my mc's will get cover from their models los. I always let my opponents tell me how many models are under a template and I never challenge the call.

Yes the soft scores are confidential, but ron announced there was a tie for first and the breaker was based on sports and comp. When even the person who took first couldn't figure how he got first and I tried to do the math also, yeah I asked for clarification about my scores. The only other tourney I've played in are at MG and they post comp and sports split by opponent at the end so its not confidential.

The only hint I ever received about why I lost points on comp was "you didn't take anything that's bad... All my choices were good...". Again, its a tournament, I came to win but I followed every rule about avoiding duplicates and point allocation that I asked on this forum a month ago. I guess if we only give people good comp scores if the take bad units, then ill be scoring my opponents differently in the future.

I'm sorry I don't know about roads. Like I said I've only beenplaying since march. My army has no vehicles and the only game I played on a city board before was against dark eldar which are all fast skimmers anyways. The road issue was brought up by an observer when he noticed my shock that your razorback moved so far.
I guess I'll thank you for the learning experience and hope it imrpoves my play in the future. I'll just request TO's to clarify soft score criteria better in the future.

Thanks for the response. Water under the bridge mate.

[fishboy]

IW is correct in sportsman has to be judged by your opponents. I also agree that a public forum is a very bad place to post this because not only does it make you look bad it puts your opponent in questionable light.

I have run may events (GT and lower) and found the best sports score works like this:

Every opponent can score 0-1-2 points for sportsmanship for each game. This is not a score breaker but more so the judges can find problem players. At the end of the tourny each player judges their opponents best to worst. In a 3 round event you would pick favorite, 2nd favorite, and 3rd favorite. THis does not mean you had a bad opponent but that they ranked from favorite on down. Typically this really sets the higher sports opponents higher up on the scale and prevents people from having the power to really ding the scores.

[jay]

Jun 7, 2010 18:42:00 GMT -5 fishboy said:

IW is correct in sportsman has to be judged by your opponents. I also agree that a public forum is a very bad place to post this because not only does it make you look bad it puts your opponent in questionable light.

I have run may events (GT and lower) and found the best sports score works like this:

Every opponent can score 0-1-2 points for sportsmanship for each game. This is not a score breaker but more so the judges can find problem players. At the end of the tourny each player judges their opponents best to worst. In a 3 round event you would pick favorite, 2nd favorite, and 3rd favorite. THis does not mean you had a bad opponent but that they ranked from favorite on down. Typically this really sets the higher sports opponents higher up on the scale and prevents people from having the power to really ding the scores.

This is pretty much how the DaBoyz GT will be set up.

[Krusty (zack)]

not that its really important, but i would never guess, just by looking at it, that the rhino you used (the one on the right, correct?) has extra armour on it...
you cant really use an older model to compare to show that it has armour, because its not the same model...
im not sure if the other rhino was on the table that game, but honestly i find it pretty unfair that someone has to assume that a rhino has armour just because you are using the new bulkier model instead of the outdated one...
and if that other rhino was on the table, i really hope is was fielded without armour...

and from what i can see, it doesnt look like any real effort was made to give it the armoured look; hell the front plate that goes over the viewing ports wasnt even put on...

just one of the points in this argument that i noticed that really got my attention, not tryin to attack anyone, just pointing out what would have bothered me (and apparently bothered aaron)

[MajorSoB]

Holy crap Batman, is this thread seriously this long over one freaking point for a "first of the month" tourney? You're freaking kidding me right??? Not that Tommy is perfect or above reproach but give me a break! In order you should have:

1) Insisted that he go get his list so you could review it ( especially since first place was on the line ) OR shut up about it. You made the choice not to make it an issue when you played.
2) WYSISYG rhinos, you are kidding me right? And Tommy mixing old death boxes with the new rhinos to point out the difference in WYSIWYG, your joking right?
3) When assigning vehicle damage did you ask if it had extra armor?
4) You should have insisted he allocate 4 wounds rather than reroll. I am also sure that if you asked Ron he would have given you the same solution. You allowed him a reroll and then were unhappy with your results. I am sure if he failed 5 or more on the reroll it would be a non-issue now.
5) If it looks like a road and smells like a road it probably is a road. Again you could have asked a judge.
6) A 2 seems decent, did you think you were god's gift to sportmanship scores that day. I would say 8 out of 9 points is pretty d**n good.

Just my opinion...

[jay]

Jun 8, 2010 1:36:00 GMT -5 MajorSoB said:

Holy crap Batman, is this thread seriously this long over one freaking point for a "first of the month" tourney? You're freaking kidding me right??? Not that Tommy is perfect or above reproach but give me a break! In order you should have:

1) Insisted that he go get his list so you could review it ( especially since first place was on the line ) OR shut up about it. You made the choice not to make it an issue when you played.
2) WYSISYG rhinos, you are kidding me right? And Tommy mixing old death boxes with the new rhinos to point out the difference in WYSIWYG, your joking right?
3) When assigning vehicle damage did you ask if it had extra armor?
4) You should have insisted he allocate 4 wounds rather than reroll. I am also sure that if you asked Ron he would have given you the same solution. You allowed him a reroll and then were unhappy with your results. I am sure if he failed 5 or more on the reroll it would be a non-issue now.
5) If it looks like a road and smells like a road it probably is a road. Again you could have asked a judge.
6) A 2 seems decent, did you think you were god's gift to sportsmanship scores that day. I would say 8 out of 9 points is pretty d**n good.

Just my opinion...

couple of comments about your post Doug. he clearly asked for the list and he did not have it. Does he become rude and demand him go down stairs get it? maybe he loses another point in sportsmanship because Tommy is not prepared for the game. It is his fault Tommy is not Prepared?

The road issue: it should of been talked about. no different if a a bunker was located on the table. no different with ruins without bases. in my experience it better to clarify everthing, so there are not problems in later turns in the game.

I did not attend the tourney, the biggest thing that concerns me the most is that Shaun won it. ;D You don't need to build his ego any more.

[hyv3mynd]

Thanks for the input guys, but a lot of it was "had to be there". We only played 4 turns in the time limit and were moving pretty fast at the end. I'm still green and not always used to fast rolls when playing against units/wargear I haven't encountered before.

I made many mistakes and take full accountability. We can shut the thread down now.