Missions where random things die are bad

[Horst]

Just as a discussion topic, I'd like to state that missions that cause units to behave randomly, take random casualties, or randomly are disabled are bad. It encourages armies that either A) spam similar units, or B) are horde armies with multiple units.

If you have a single unit of ranged anti-tank support, and that one unit is randomly selected to either warp or die, then your screwed. However, if you spam 3 units of ranged anti-tank support, your good no matter what happens.

Any mission where a random unit is crippled in any way can only discourage armies from taking units with a single purpose, because if that one unit they rely on for a task is taken out, they are completely screwed.

In fact, I would go so far as to say missions involving randomization of anything are not good for a competitive tournament, because you could essentially be deciding the game with a single throw of the dice. Some games come down to a single roll anyway, but those are often close games that could go either way. Imagine a game where you have 3 objectives, one in your deployment zone, one in the enemies, and one in the middle. Your playing against a Tau army. The mission says only 1 of the 3 objectives is real, roll to see. Well, if the objective turns out to be the one in the tau's deployment zone, in the far corner, behind his 40 fire warriors, guess who's not winning this match (at least not without fighting an uphill battle that isn't really balanced).

Missions need to be balanced, without relying randomization of critical mission objectives or unit behavior.

[honsou]

agreed, they are very bad, they hamper marine armies almost to a slow crawl, marine units are small as is, anything that can kill 3 models per turn is bad...now in a field at this years tournamen that looks like its gonna be full of tyranids, i dont think missions like that will balance anything out

[Iron Warrior]

You have not apprently have played some of the old "special missions" with peliminary strikes or apocalypse, or other non normal missions.

Nothing is wrong if both sides have to suffer to the same extent. 1 in every 6 units will take a hit. BOTH sides will be affected thus balancing out the odds of potential loss.

Random things die in every game yet no one complains. Templates hit where they are not supposed to, Vehicles explode at inoppotune times and Perils of the warp kill psykers. The game is all about randomness, even the method in which we play......dice. To state you dislike randomness in a game that is nearly complete randomness is a bit odd. Welcome to a dice game. ;D

[Horst]

Well, both sides aren't suffering to the same extent, and thats the problem.

I'm going to use two armies as comparisons here... biker marines (because its what I am planning on bringing to the GT), and horde orks (which I face often enough).

If 1 in every 6 units suffers 1-3 losses, and I have 6 units on the table, i'm loosing between 25-75 points per turn. If the ork player has, say, 12 units on the table, he's loosing between 12-36 points of units per turn. Thats of course assuming we both roll average, and that I didn't combat squad any of my units. If I choose to combat squad my bikes, I'm looking at loosing 50-150 points of models per turn, to random dice rolling... if I'm rolling average. One poor turn, where 2-3 units take hits like this, and I roll high on the number of hits taken on my unit, and I could loose 10 bikes... thats a quarter of the bikes i'm planning on fielding. An ork player looses 10 boyz, and what, thats like a minor annoyance.

randomly moving / disabling / crippling units really only encourages unit spam. Why would I bother taking different types of predators for different tasks, if I know one of them might be trashed by a random dice roll? I should just pack 3 of the same type, so that if I loose one, I can continue on. I should also do the same for my elites choices, for the same reasons.... same for all other options. Also, if your army tends to have either larger units (bases or size) the warping of them will be far more likely to mishap them. Bike units, for example, take up alot of foot space... having one of them magically move 18" forward is going to kill an awful lot of them. Someone who takes 12 chimeras full of guardsmen, however, really won't give a d**n if one of his chimeras just suddenly dissapears.... its all relative.

so yea, its NOT really balanced if each army has to have the same disadvantage, because the composition of each army isn't the same, and the cost of lost models in each army is vastly different.

edit - I really don't have a problem with missions like this, but if these are used, i'll be bringing mechanized marines instead of biker marines, where I can actually absorb losses better

[hyv3mynd]

Assuming you're referring to the two missions Doug posted, here's what I think.

The missions will be posted ahead of time as Adepticon and Ardboyz missions were, allowing list tailoring.

However, Daboyz GT is catered towards all-around hobbyists. This means (maybe we haven't seen the final comp scoring criteria) themed/fluffy/non-optimized lists will be in the majority and people will be less likely to tailor a themed army to compete well in 1-2 missions.

Mission #6 caters to horde/foot armies. Imagine 4x30 orks versus 6x12 orks in trukks. Player 1 loses a few orks, player 2 potentially loses a trukk, which also ramshackles and displaces one whole unit. Or compare nidzilla versus nid zerg. A biomorphed TMC runs around 200 pts or 33pts per wound. Nidzilla loses up to 99 points a turn in a list with 6 MC's, zerg list loses 18 points of gargoyles/hormagaunts/tergmagants.

Mission #7 is the exact opposite. Imagine an ork horde list with 6x30 orks. One unit warps and will mishap 85% of the possible directions. There's almost no way to 3d6" a unit of 30 boyz and wrap them via deepstrike rules without mishap'inng on something. Also take into account that a horde ork army is mainly an assault list, so he will be moving and running towards enemies and increasing his chances to mishap. Once assault armies are in the thick of it, say turn 3-4, you're looking at one mishap per army per turn.

It really does take the game out of the realm of tactics and into the realm of random chaos. They're probably great games in a casual atmosphere, but not in an 80 player tournament.

[Horst]

one of the major problems is that BOTH of those mission types favor to lists that spam transports, either razorbacks, immolators, and chimeras, which are already overpowered against most balanced lists anyway.

[hyv3mynd]

I dunno about #7 favoring transports. I'd gladly play that mission against a leafblower list and watch all their chimera-hulls and russ's mishap into each other and off the board. No way to avoid it unless you deploy them 18" from each other and the table edge. That doesn't even account for nearby impassable and enemy units to mishap on.

Best way to salvage that mission is give the warp ability the same text as drop pods, reducing the scatter to prevent mishaps. Also making units in locked in CC immune. Having a locked unit 3d6" a random direction is almost a guaranteed mishap unless you get the direction directly opposed their locked unit and you have nothing coming from behind.

[chumbalaya]

Missions like these will cause more problems for smaller armies with more focused units, particularly elite armies like some SM variants and Eldar. It does encourage redundancy so you don't get screwed by a bad roll, but it does so in a hamfisted way that ends up more of an annoyance than anything else.

Armies that get punished the most are your typical "compy" armies, the one-of-everything battleforcey types. A mech IG or similar army with multiple redundant and mobile units isn't going to be hurt nearly as much.

Also, assault armies just get screwed by the warp thingy, especially if units can warp out of combat.

[MajorSoB]

Jul 2, 2010 16:26:56 GMT -5 Horst said:

one of the major problems is that BOTH of those mission types favor to lists that spam transports, either razorbacks, immolators, and chimeras, which are already overpowered against most balanced lists anyway.

OK if this is the case, then why are you whining since I have yet to see you play anything but a mech list?

What I wrote were two list that will force you to redirect the focus of your army throughout the game. I don't believe either scenario favors any army, but assuming that 6 favors hordes and 7 is the opposite, then maybe I suceeded since a balanced list is somewhere in the middle? What both lists do favor is diverse troop heavy armies, but they are just too boring to play right?

So have any of you whiny gitz actually played on of the missions or are you too busy MathHammering to actually unpack you case? If anyone of you sissies can get mommy to drive you to Millennium on tuesday maybe we can test one out. I would challenge Chumby but that would only result in another excuse. Lets see, chaperoning his brother's graduation ( joke!), hungover ( over one beer!), what's next is tuesday your Girl Scout night. Wouldn't want to miss ccokie sales and smores night!

In conclusion, shut the F___ up! If you want to do something productive, ask Jay, Ron, Ben, Rob or myself. Stop slamming the people who actually run the tournaments. Steve refresh my memory what when have you helped run an event? ( Cue the crickets!) We have ALOT of tables that need to be build, scenery that YOU could be making, hell you could put down the keyboard and paint your freaking army since November will be here soon and I am positive most people will be scrambing to get their stuff done.

BTW Smitty nice rant. I light of that I will be at Millennium tomorrow. Again any of you have anything constructive to add show up and maybe we can talk about it. If you want to whine and biatch show up and do it to my face, I think Rob will be there too!

Peace out!

[MajorSoB]

Jul 2, 2010 18:12:35 GMT -5 chumbalaya said:

Missions like these will cause more problems for smaller armies with more focused units, particularly elite armies like some SM variants and Eldar. It does encourage redundancy so you don't get screwed by a bad roll, but it does so in a hamfisted way that ends up more of an annoyance than anything else.

Let's start here...WRONG! Not all SM or Eldar list are "elites" so your logic fails due to a false premise. Good job Einstein!

Jul 2, 2010 18:12:35 GMT -5 chumbalaya said:

Armies that get punished the most are your typical "compy" armies, the one-of-everything battleforcey types. A mech IG or similar army with multiple redundant and mobile units isn't going to be hurt nearly as much.

Again ...WRONG. In the mission where a vehicle can suffer a random penetrating hit, it does open up the possibility of that box exploding. Also in the warp mission that landraider full of assault termies could warp right off the table or into a place where its not needed. It doesnt favor footslogging or mech!

Jul 2, 2010 18:12:35 GMT -5 chumbalaya said:

Also, assault armies just get screwed by the warp thingy, especially if units can warp out of combat.

WRONG again, strike three, you are out! That could benefit or screw armies on either side of the table. You could also warp closer to a unit that you wanted to assault as well dumbass!

Thank you for your time. Now back to playing with your Barbies Chumby!

[hyv3mynd]

I gotta disagree with your assumption on the warp mission Doug.

Deepstrike rules allow a unit to shoot after it deep strikes, but not move or assault. That alone favors shooting lists.

The average roll on 3d6" will be around 11". Shooting lists can spread out their deployment and have very little chance of mishap at least the first few turns. Assault armies potentially could move forward or backward, and then not be able to make their normal move that turn.

Assuming you get a unit into assault or even close, a 3d6" warp could not only remove them from CC, but cause them to mishap on the unit they were locked with, destroying the assault unit and not harming the unit they were orginally locked with. Warping closer with an assault unit is not a good thing as they can't assault the turn they DS. Nor does it outweigh the possibility of losing the whole unit to mishap.

Not only that, but some armies rely on closeness and cohesion. Tyranids need 12" for synapse, guard for orders, eldar need proximity to the avatar for fearless. The warping mission handicaps those armies even more, forcing them to run in a blob just asking for mishaps while space marines, chaos, etc can spread out with no penalty.

[Horst]

maybe doug should refrain from drinking before posting....

[chumbalaya]

Never change Doug <3

[Brinan The Barbarian]

Okay, I'm staying as far out as possible, but...

A) Random missions are fun. If you don't like fun, then why are you even involved in the game?

B) The winner of the tournament should prove that they can overcome anything no matter what is thrown at their army, including random encounters.

C) Don't blame the mission for your need to take so many units. While we're at it, why don't you female dog about kill point missions too?

You guys really miss the point of being part of DaBoyz. As Smitty said, you make modified 'Ardboyz lists and female dog about your comp in the end. I'm so opposed to those type of lists that when I played the 'Ardboyz tournament last year, (and won) I played a really balanced list, and still beat everyone I faced. You guys aren't DaBoyz, you are powergamers in every sense, and I mean every sense. When I walk around the stores, all I see is primer legion armies. I again agree with Smitty when he said he doesn't enjoy to paint, but does it because it is part of the game. It's not something I extremely dislike, just theres only so much of it that I can take. Wanna know why I play orcs and goblins in fantasy? It is fun. I look back at the games I have played and laugh about them, win or lose. You guys play these nasty armies, and then get all pissed off and whine about the way the tournament was run, or how you were cheated, this that and the other.

Try out a compy list some time, not a list that is what you took at 'Ardboyz, try lists like this.


1 Abaddon the Despoiler (HQ) @ 275 Pts
#Terminator Armour [0]
#Daemon Sword Drach'nyen [0]
#Talon of Horus [0]

4 Chaos Terminators (Elites) @ 180 Pts
Mark of Chaos Glory; Icon Bearer; Lightning Claw (x4); Lightning Claw
(x4); Terminator Champion (x1)
#Terminator Armour [0]

7 Khorne Bezerkers (Troops) @ 243 Pts
Mark of Khorne; ; Bolt Pistol (x7); CC Weapon (x7); Frag Grenades; Krak
Grenades

1 Skull Champion @ [61] Pts
Mark of Khorne; Bolt Pistol (x1); Power Fist (x1); Frag Grenades;
Krak Grenades

1 Chaos Rhino @ [35] Pts
Combi-Bolter
#Searchlight [0]
#Smoke Launcher [0]

6 Plague Marines (Troops) @ 256 Pts
Mark of Nurgle; ; Blight Grenades; Bolt Pistol (x6); CC Weapon (x6);
Bolter (x4); Meltagun (x2); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades

1 Plague Champion @ [63] Pts
Blight Grenades; Mark of Nurgle; Bolt Pistol (x1); Power Fist (x1);
Bolter; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades

1 Chaos Rhino @ [35] Pts
Combi-Bolter
#Searchlight [0]
#Smoke Launcher [0]

12 Noise Marines (Troops) @ 335 Pts
Mark of Slaanesh; ; Bolt Pistol (x12); CC Weapon (x12); Sonic Blaster
(x11); Blastmaster (x1); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades

8 Thousand Sons (Troops) @ 304 Pts
Mark of Tzeentch; ; Bolter (x8)

1 Aspiring Sorcerer @ [85] Pts
Mark of Tzeentch; Bolt Pistol (x1); Force Weapon
Bolt of Change [25]

1 Chaos Rhino @ [35] Pts
Combi-Bolter
#Searchlight [0]
#Smoke Launcher [0]

14 Chaos Space Marines (Troops) @ 250 Pts
Mark of Chaos Glory; Icon Bearer; Bolt Pistol (x14); CC Weapon (x14);
Bolter (x14); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades

1 Aspiring Champion @ [30] Pts
Mark of Chaos Glory; Bolt Pistol (x1); CC Weapon (x1); Bolter; Frag
Grenades; Krak Grenades

Models in Army: 59


Total Army Cost: 1843

Until you understand what makes this army good, and learn to build and play these lists, you will never be one of us. I'm sorry to sound like suck a thingy, but your whining is really getting old. If you don't like something, deal with it. It's part of the game.

[Horst]

brinan, from this point on, if your going to post a list, post it in a readable format... had to go through and edit your list.

HQ- Abaddon - 275 pts

Elite- 4x terminators (champ, all with 2x claws, IGoCG) - 180 pts

Troops- 8x Berzerkers (champ w/ fist) in rhino - 243 pts
Troops- 7x Plague Marines (champ w/ fist, 2x melta) in rhino - 256 pts
Troops- 9x Thousand suns (sorc w/ bolt of change) in rhino - 304 pts
Troops- 12x Noise Marines (11x sonic blasters, 1x blastmaster) - 335 pts
Troops - 16x Chaos Marines (aspiring champ w/ chainsword) - 255 pts

total - 1848 pts





yes, this is a terrible list, because your going out of your way to choose bloated and over-costed units when you don't need to. It wouldn't compromise your theme to give terminators combi-meltas and power weapons, would it? would it REALLY compromise your theme to use a 6 man squad of noise marines (still sacred)... would it REALLY compromise your theme to not use the 16 man squad of chaos marines that do nothing because you chose to give them no special weapons?

lets for a minute pretend this is your "fluffy" list your bringing to the GT. good for you. Now, lets put you against a guy who brings an equally "fluffy" mechanized guard regiment. Its perfectly acceptable for him to bring a ton of chimeras and leman russes... thats the way the guard works.

If daBoyz are a group of players who like to bring lists that they make that are intentionally bad, rather than lists that are both fluffy AND good, i'm glad to not be among your ranks. I was under the impression the culture for warhammer around rochester was that we 1) didn't use special characters, and 2) brought lists that were both adherent to written GW fluff, AND powerful. The two aren't mutually exclusive, though many people seem to think they are.

Even if we used your list, the mission where your units randomly warp is STILL bad for you... if your playing against a marine player with a land raider, the ONLY hope you have for killing it would be to blow it up with your plague marines. Great. Now, how would you feel if the plague marines suddenly warped off the table, or into another unit, or were somehow destroyed by a random event? Would you just laugh it off, and say oh well, guess I lost this game? I'd be a bit upset, because its a random occurance that has a huge impact on the winner of the game.

Loosing a game due to a wonky mission special rule is FINE, but when i'm paying $50 or more to attend a tournament, missions should not be like that... there should be an attempt at balance. I'll play crazy missions on tuesdays at millennium, thanks. If you want to have random occurances in game decide the outcome of games, why bother giving prizes to people who places? it would just be random luck who won the games... makes more sense to just raffle off everything.

also, brinan, who are you talking to? You say you guys, it seems to be referring to everyone in this thread. By saying you guys, it seems to mean there is more than one person you have a problem with. I took a very nicely comped marine list to the GT last year... hyv3mynd takes very varied tyranid lists (though he gets poor comp scores for some reason... our system is broken)... ironwarrior takes very good lists as well. If your talking about chumbalaya... well... he doesn't play much anyway, so I really doubt you've seen his lists. Be specific when you make accusations, rather than just saying "you guys suck"... because otherwise, we are just left to guess.

I do find it ironic, however, that at the bottom of your post, you say If you don't like something, deal with it. It's part of the game.... which part, exactly, is random missions? Where in the rules are THEY written? They are not part of the game. They are something we are adding onto it, to create a fun environment for games. Thus, "dealing" with it is not a good way to go about this. Please, also, refrain from using curse words that the forum system will censor out... it makes your posts less intelligible. If you can't debate the issue with a civil tounge, then perhaps you should refrain from posting? Unless, of course, you simply mean to troll, in which case, have at.