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Post by crimsonstorm on Aug 8, 2010 2:49:22 GMT -5
Well, I was at the 40k tournament at the end of July at Boldo's and got absolutely demolished. I learned a lot though, and have revised my chapter list to match my newfound insight. Here are my requests: 1. constructive criticism 2. Let me know if you have any of this you are willing to sell 3. Answer the following: Can close combat squads with relic blades still get the extra attack for having a bolt pistol equipped even though relic blades are 2-handed?
Without further comment, here's my Crimson Storm chapter list:
Crimson Storm 2000pt army list
HQ: Chapter Master Andus Tempestus the Avenger: 170 points -Artificer Armour,Relic Blade, Bolt Pistol, Melta-Bombs
Honour Guard Squad: 285 points 4 Guards w/Relic Blades and Bolt Pistols, 1 carries chapter banner 1 Champion with Relic Blade and Bolt Pistol Transport Drop Pod3
Librarian: 150 points Epistolary, Avenger, Might of the Ancients
Troops:
Tactical Squad: 185 points 7 marines with boltgun 1 marine with Missile Launcher 1 Marine with Meltagun 1 sergeant with power weapon and Bolt pistol Transport Rhino1
Tactical Squad: 185 points 7 Marines with Boltgun 1 Marine with Meltagun 1 Marine with Missile Launcher 1 Sergeant with power weapon and Bolt Pistol
Scout Squad: 150 points 8 Scouts with Snipers 1 Scout with Missile Launcher 1 Scout Sergeant with Sniper
Transports:
Rhino1: 35 points
Drop Pod1: 35 points
Drop pod2: 35 points
Drop Pod 3: 35 points
Elites:
Dreadnought: 145 points -Twin-Linked Lascannon, Missile Launcher
Dreadnought: 125 points -Missile Launcher, Plasma Cannon Transport Drop Pod2
Ironclad Dreadnought: 160 points Close Combat Weapon w/Heavy Flamer, Ironclad Assault Launcher, Seismic Hammer w/Meltagun Transport Drop pod1
Heavy Support:
Devastator Squad: 150 points 4 marines w/ Missile Launchers 1 Sergeant w/boltgun
Devastator Squad: 150 points 4 marines w/ Missile Launchers 1 Sergeant w/boltgun
Total: 2000 points
I'm debating on dropping the Ironclad Dreadnought for another Tactical or Devastator squad though.
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Post by chumbalaya on Aug 8, 2010 7:28:33 GMT -5
1. constructive criticism 2. Let me know if you have any of this you are willing to sell 3. Answer the following: Can close combat squads with relic blades still get the extra attack for having a bolt pistol equipped even though relic blades are 2-handed? 1. Of course 2. I've got Tactical Marines out the wazoo as well as a bunch of Captains/Librarians. 3. Nope. Storm Shield is great for relic blade users since you don't have the extra attack anyway. Chapter Masters aren't terribly useful considering you pay 25 points for a 1 shot bombardment (that forces you combat character to sit still for a turn) and lose the option for a Command Squad. Yeesh, how much is this squad? They can do damage for sure, but with no invulnerable save they are very easily killed off by AP2 weaponry. Considering how popular meltas are these days, that may not be the best plan. A Command Squad can be easily tricked out for smashy with storm shields and the odd powerfist. Or you can just stick with the tried and true method: TH/SS Terminators. Librarians aren't really built for combat. No invul, I4 and a low number of attacks really hurts them. Epistolaries aren't worth the 50 often enough, will you really be using 2 powers every turn? Null Zone is the way to go here, everything else is gravy. Power weapons can go, S4 isn't very good and Tacticals should be falling out of combat anyway. Go for a combi-melta to complement your special weapon, just so you'll have a better shot of popping that tank when the time comes. Camo cloaks FTW, otherwise fine. Needs another Rhino for sure. Drop Pods cab surprise some people, but if they hop into reserve or use bubblewrap/spread deployment to counter you, you'll be left high and dry at their mercy. Podding is fine for suicide units or if you have mobile support that can get there ASAP (Rhinos, Speeders, Bikes), but just throwing 2 units down and hoping they won't die is a poor plan. Rifleman FTW. 2 autocannons are cheaper and better for popping light armor. Rifleman here too. AV13 or no, dropping him into melta range is suicide. Like Long Fangs, only more expensive and unable to split fire. Devastators are overpriced, go for all those lovely tanks marines have. Predators rock. The suicide HG and Ironclad are big point sinks that aren't guaranteed to work. I'd just go for normal TH/SS Termies, they're the best assault unit you've got available. Them in a Land Raider or even a big squad on foot (good if you have a shootier army, think of them as protection for the entire army) will handle anything anybody can throw at them. Then you can focus on mobility and shooty. Speeders, Preds, Rhinos/Razors, and Dreads are all dirt cheap and easy to include for more versatile firepower.
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Post by Catachan Colonel on Aug 8, 2010 8:25:43 GMT -5
No relic blades dont give you the extra attack because they are two handed, but you can shoot the pistols before charging in.
Onto the list...
Good kit out here, I would only pay the upgrade cost for having the honor guard and not for the 1 shot ordinance. Since he can't get the extra attack for 2 weapons you may want to find points for a storm bolter. It gets you an extra shot and a lot of range for cheap.
Cut two relic blades to save the 30 points Then you have at least a couple cheaper casualties and Str 4 is really good enough most the time as long as you have some better stuff in the unit. I would also swap the Chapter champion's relic blade for a Thunder Hammer. It keeps the squad a threat to dreadnoughts and lets them damage Ironclads plus vs Ind characters he may auto kill (Since you reroll failed hits & wounds) (Only real weakness is no invul but the Librarian could fix that.)
I would swap out Avenger for Force Dome. Gives him and if you are smart the honor guard a5+Invun. Librarian is a good Utility unit and the Cost to upgrade for the 2 powers is usually worth it. Just treat him more as support than a Chaos style beater and you should be fine. The shield is important to help his fellow battle brothers and Might of the anchients helps him kill big stuff. Most other powers are very situational. (Null zone may be good against daemons but most armies only have 1 or two invuls army wide)
Good Choices all around. May upgrade the Power Weapon to a fist but Either has its advantages.
Without a transport i would probably cheap out and give a flamer to burn up people who try to flank you or spend some points and grab a plasma gun. Most likely the plasma. This squad or its combat squad components are likely religated to securing very close objectives and hoping the rest of your army can defend them.
Good Unit: No complaints. Find some cover and shoot at things they are good at killing. (Since you got 10 they can split up but with only a 4+ save they are not durable. I agree about the Cammo Cloaks recomendation.)
Dreadnoughts should always have a power fist kill the missile. This guy is going to guard Tac Squad 2.
Once again Needs a Power Fist. Also if you are drop podding him He should have a heavy flamer he is likely using it on the drop.
Great choice N'uff said.
Better Fire power than any of the tanks but you minned it out so all casualties are heavy weapons. Get some filler in here. 1 bolt gun per heavy weapon recomended.
As above this is a good choice but it needs filler.
Army wide this is mostly good i would probably drop the 2nd devistator squad and put more bolters in the first. Then buy some speeders maybe a 2nd Rh1n0.
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Post by crimsonstorm on Aug 8, 2010 13:26:40 GMT -5
I like the missiles on my dreadnoughts because my army is a stand back and shoot 'em themed army. If i drop the second devastator squad, should I invest some points in a predator? As for the honour guard, Swapping them out for a group of assault terminators might just be a good idea. I don't bother with power fists on the sergeants though because the lack of initiative leaves them vulnerable.
Lastly, How much for a Librarian in Terminator Armour if you have it, and 2 10-man squads of Tactical Marines with the above weapon options?
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Post by chumbalaya on Aug 8, 2010 13:42:40 GMT -5
Missiles are good for shooty, you just need to pick up stuff that uses them efficiently. In vanilla marines, Typhoons are pretty much it. On a Dread, you can pick up a TL Autocannon for the same price, which is a much more reliable due to TL and twice the shots. In Heavy slots, Devs are overpriced while Preds can get an autocannon and maybe some sponson lascannons for cheap. Powerfists' low I is bad on ICs, but on a hidden Sergeant in a larger unit it's much safer. Just remember that Tacticals aren't very good in HtH, powerfist or no, so combat tactics is your best friend. Melta and missile launcher Tacticals I can do, but the only Terminator Librarian I've got is a goofy conversion I made years ago and I doubt anybody would want anything to do with that
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Post by crimsonstorm on Aug 8, 2010 15:18:06 GMT -5
Ok, so how much for the 2 tactical squads? And if you happen to have a load of missile launcher marines I could put together devastator squads with 'em, since I don't think devastators are any different from regular marines looks-wise. I'll pass on the typhoons, but I was thinking on getting 1 or 2 Predators. Is the autocannon or the TL Lascannon more worth it? As for the dreadnoughts, I'll swap out the missile launcher on the plasma cannon one for an autocannon and have him be my infantry hunter while the other hunts vehicles. Also, do you have any predators, dreadnoughts, dreadnought weapon arms, or assault terminators to sell?
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Post by chumbalaya on Aug 8, 2010 18:41:17 GMT -5
Heh, I'm using most of my missiles with my Loganwing. Long Fangs FTW <3
Devastators are just regular marines with big guns, no difference there.
On the Pred I like the autocannon simply because the lascannon is so expensive. Sponson lascannons get you twice the shots for about the same price, but HBs are ludicrously cheap. Depends on what you need the Pred for.
If you go for a PC, I'd just as soon keep the DCCW so it can fight in HtH. PCs don't lend themselves to vehicle busting and a DCCW is much better than an AC for slapping around infantry. Dual autocannon Dreads are more for anti-transport and long range dakka.
The 2 Tac Squads and a rummage through ye olde bitz box can go for ~30 bucks. Shiny new ones come in at 35 a pop, so sounds reasonable, yes? All my vehicle chassis and Dreadies are in use, sadly, and I has no Assault Termies (stupid Deathwing and their crappy storm shields).
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Post by crimsonstorm on Aug 8, 2010 20:43:06 GMT -5
was that 30 bucks for both squads or 30 bucks each? As for the bits box, are there any Dreadnought weapon arms in there? I have the dreadnought from Assault on Black Reach but it could use different weapons
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nutter
Sergeant
Ben "Ginger Gotee" Lucko
Posts: 304
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Post by nutter on Aug 9, 2010 0:16:48 GMT -5
The list is a great starter list if you haven't play that many games, once you get a few games in your gonna notice a few big flaws, The main one being you have no "hammer" unit, the honor guard are great but the first power weapon they see is going to chew them to bits and due to there size any unit of 10 or more models will prob break it. So here's where I would go from here. Heavy Armor. Yeah meltas are prevalent in the game not but marines really need there Heavy support vehicles to win, i recommend pick up a land raider, either a Crusader if your gonna get the Termies or a Regular one if you set on keeping your HQ the way it is. Predators with the auto cannon turret are better light tank hunters in my eyes then devs, if you wanna go purely after light armor throw the HB's on it, or to go after heavy stuff 12+, keep the auto cannon turret but throw the laz cannon's on the side. Vindicators are nice, they scare the crap out of people and can take a beating if they got rhinos on there flanks, There great at both taking out tanks, str 10 with 2 d6 armor pen picking the highest result ( i think its like 40% chance of getting a pen on av 14), and they also EAT infantry, and for the cost (115 pts) there cheap compared to devs. Chumby had a good point about the dread and the typhoons, The rifle man dread for the points is the best option, 135points gets you 4 TL str 7 shots, Good bye rhino? A typhoon at 90 points gets you 2 str 8 shots and a str 8 melta shot, can move 6 and fire every thing or 12 and fire the melta (regular speeders in packs of 2 and 3 with melta's is scary) If its also a objective mission and you have last turn you have a 24 inch turbo move to go contest one your opponent has. Also ironclads a fine to drop in but if you need points a basic naked dread come with a multi melta so for 140 points you deep strink him fist and go pop some tanks. Your Marine troops are fine would'nt change a thing other than the sword to fist(if i hit something i wanna kill it) , just remember what your "free" weapons are. Your scouts i would take 4 and a the sarge, give him a Power sword for the extra attack and a melta bomb and put them in a land speeder storm. This lets them out flank and the speeder is open topped so in theroy they have about a 21 inch charge the turn they come on the board ( Move 12, get out with in 2, charge 6) with the melta bomb they go and just destroy tank lines and if you give the 4 scouts ccw, pistols there putting out 12 attacks on the charge, there good for killing weird units like guard heavy weapon teams and there platoon command squad, since the speeder makes your opponents Ld -2 they should easily cut down some thing in CC. Also The storm screws with deep strikes and demon summons, this load out is SUPER flexible since they can deal with almost everything (well not big bugs) and claim your opponent objectives. Sternguard..... Possibly the best unit in the book (aside from TH/SS termies) take a unit of ten, with 4 combi meltas and a drop pod and watch tanks die, put a heavy flamer in there with some combi flamers and watch some mob size squads go poof, or use there ridiculous ammo to make big hard to kill units (big bugs, wraithlord's) take a bunch of armor savers (20 bs4 wound on 2+ shots normally ends up being about 12-15 wounds on average) If you have any other questions just throw'em up here and we'll help you out. ~Ben
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Post by crimsonstorm on Aug 9, 2010 0:55:24 GMT -5
Ok, so I'm going to: -Ditch the honour guard for a squad of Assault Terminators w/ Thunder Hammers & Storm Shields -Give my chapter master Terminator Armour, Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield -Give the Librarian Terminator Armour and Storm Shield. -I'm thinking of getting a predator w/ Autocannon and Lascannon sponsons -Get a Vindicator (did you mean to position the rhinos on the flanks of the vindicator to protect the side armour?) -Switch one of the Dreads up with the 2 TL Autocannons -Keep the other Dread with Lascannon & Missile Launcher -Forgo the power fists (if something charges my marines, odds are that they can kill the sergeant before he gets a chance to swing his fist) - Grab 2 Land Speeder Storms and split the scout squad into 2 or take another scout squad(although I'm not gonna bother with the CCW as their armour just can't take the hits and my army is themed on range) -Consider a Land Raider Crusader, though I'm not sure if it's worth 250 points
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Post by crimsonstorm on Aug 9, 2010 1:49:27 GMT -5
Ok, here's my newest revision. Where would you guys recommend I lose 15 points to give the other scout group camo cloaks? Space Marine 2000 point Army List Space Marine 2000 point Army List
HQ:
Chapter Master Andus Tempestus the Avenger: 195 points -Terminator Armour, Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield
Librarian: 140 points -Terminator, Force Weapon & Storm Shield, Might of the Ancients, Null Zone
Troops:
Tactical Squad: 185 points -7 Marines w/Boltguns -1 Marine w/Meltagun -1 Marine w/Missile Launcher -1 Sergeant w/Boltgun -Transport Rhino1
Tactical Squad: 180 points -7 Marines w/Boltguns -1 Marine w/Flamer -1 Marine w/Missile Launcher -1 Sergeant w/Combi-Melta
Scout Squad: 100 points -3 Scouts w/Sniper Rifles & Camo Cloaks -1 Scout w/Missile Launcher -1 Sergeant w/Sniper Rifle -Transport Land Speeder Storm1
Scout Squad: 85 points -3 Scouts w/Sniper Rifles -1 Scout w/Missile Launcher -1 Sergeant w/Sniper Rifle -Transport Land Speeder Storm2
Transports:
Rhino1: 35 points
Elites:
Dreadnought: 125 points -2 Twin-Linked Autocannons
Dreadnought: 145 points -Twin-Linked Lascannon & Missile Launcher
Assault Terminators: 200 points -4 Terminators w/Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield -1 Sergeant w/Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield -Transport Land Raider Crusader
Fast Attack:
Land Speeder Storm1: 60 points -Heavy Flamer, Cerberus Launcher
Land Speeder Storm2: 65 points -Multi-Melta, Cerberus Launcher
Heavy Support:
Vindicator: 115 points -Demolisher Cannon, Storm Bolter
Predator: 120 points -Autocannon, Side Sponson Lascannons
Land Raider Crusader: 250 points -Twin-Linked Assault Cannon, Side Sponson Hurricane Bolters
Total: 2000 points
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Post by honsou on Aug 9, 2010 6:19:00 GMT -5
youre wasting points on the storms, why use sniper squads w missile launcher in the storm? are you gonna deploy the squads in cover and run the storms around like decoys?? storms are garbage imo, and scouts are fillers..drop the vindi, theyre overrated, why use it in an army where the strength is mid-range, and the vindicator could possibly hurt you?? its not that terrifying, it'll die before it does any damage, and if you think of it as screwing up priority, lets face it: melta's are everywhere, so your raider and vindi, against someone ready for it will get shredded...drop it, the scouts, and speeders for more tacs, and attack bikes if you want better scoring units, maintain anti-horde and have a mobile vehicle killing force..bolter=anti horde, tacs from my experience playing them will tear thru hordes with well placed rapid firing bolter salvos, and they aren't so hit-or-miss...drop might of the ancients, and get gate of infinity n the libby just for a backup in case your raider gets popped, that way you can get those bad boys closer to combat, other than that i would drop the las dread for another rifleman...solid start but still needs tweaking, and can be good without being a typical mathhammer list
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Timbo
Sergeant
Posts: 175
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Post by Timbo on Aug 9, 2010 8:22:01 GMT -5
The biggest thing I can recommend is playing a bunch of games as you build the army up, rather than buying the whole thing en masse. That way you can see what works for your play style before you drop a whole bunch of dough.
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Post by crimsonstorm on Aug 9, 2010 9:10:08 GMT -5
I've discovered a major flaw with asking for advice on a forum; EVERYONE HAS A DIFFERENT OPINION! I've had contradicting sets of advice from as many as 4 people on several forums. I think I'll just stick with what I wrote out and try it in battle to formulate my own opinions.
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Garou24
Chapter Master
Posts: 1,530
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Post by Garou24 on Aug 9, 2010 9:15:24 GMT -5
The biggest thing I can recommend is playing a bunch of games as you build the army up, rather than buying the whole thing en masse. That way you can see what works for your play style before you drop a whole bunch of dough. I agree. Play as many games as you can so you can to figure out what units work with your play style. Posting asking for advice is a good start but don't put too much stock in what others say. In the end you will end up with their version of a list instead of your own. Play some games with the points and units you have now, and play against a variety of lists and opponents. Then you can add units and change your list as you see what works well. Plus it allows you to learn your army and play what you want.
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