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Post by chumbalaya on Aug 20, 2010 0:17:47 GMT -5
Dude, Jay, if you're around Tuesday I'd like to get a game in with ya or just hang out or w/e.
My thing with comp is just that we all have access to the same rules, Codices and models. If you bring a poor list, you made that choice and have to deal with it. It could be for theme or just giving yourself a challenge. Rewarding people for poor list building would be like giving out painting awards for slapdash jobs because they're on Necrons or OOP models. List building is a part of generalship, ergo the best General is the one who can make the best list that works for him and use it well.
Winning comes from the player, his list is just his chosen tool.
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Post by blackmoor on Aug 20, 2010 2:39:30 GMT -5
I am all for comp!
If someone takes a very weak list like foot eldar that they can't possibly hope to win with, they should be rewarded for taking such a bold and original choice by getting an excellent comp score!!!
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Post by evil_red_orks on Aug 20, 2010 5:14:19 GMT -5
Jay, its been awhile. Im down for a game if u have time after.
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Post by skyth on Aug 20, 2010 5:44:25 GMT -5
The good news is that we are going to pre-judge lists for composition for our event. We are not going to give you a hard number, but a range. We will also suggest how to make it better. We hope this will take some of the subjectively out of it. We are only going to be doing this for registered players. Sorry, but we believe this is a lot of work (but worth it to make a good event) and we don’t want to be doing this for people sending us on a wild goose chase. We will review lists twice for a single person. Another good idea. An actual score would be better, but if you're going to have a blanket comp score (Not the best system in my opinion) that is subjectively scored, this is probably the best way to do it. |
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Sanguinary
Sergeant
WOW, his son looks strangely like Shaun,
Posts: 341
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Post by Sanguinary on Aug 20, 2010 7:30:25 GMT -5
I wouldn't say that taking bad army is necessarily and good comp army just because it is bad. I also don't think you should get penalized for taking a good comp army that is also good at battle. I play BA and just because I play them well doesn't mean my comp should suffer when it is a balanced list. Now if I overindulge and make an army to destroy someone then by all means lower my comp score. I think it is a very slippery slope of automatically saying that a good army cannot have a good comp score too. They are not mutually exclusive ideas. I am all for comp! If someone takes a very weak list like foot eldar that they can't possibly hope to win with, they should be rewarded for taking such a bold and original choice by getting an excellent comp score!!! |
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Post by crimthaan on Aug 20, 2010 13:06:03 GMT -5
I'd personally love to see this thread not turn into another flame war over comp/non-comp. The fact of the matter is that Jay is the TO and what he says goes, can we please stop arguing one way or the other? There's only so many ways to say the same things.
As far as comp and theme, I think it's very easy for a player to bring a fluffy and well themed army if they put their imagination to work. Take a Death Wing army for example...it's easy to theme an army around them as well as taking a decent comp army. Obviously they will all be in terminator armour, but do you need to have 3 or 4 squads of Terminators armed the exact same way? No, just switch up their loadouts and you should be golden.
Same goes for Blood Angels or Space Wolves. If you take...say Red Maw's Great Company that is has a large number of Grey Hunters, or Logans Company that has a large number of Wolf Guard, you don't need to have them armed all the same. Seeing 5x Grey Hunter squads with Power Fist, Meltax2, MotW, and Multi-Melta is very very boring for both you and your opponent.
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Post by carlosthecraven on Aug 20, 2010 14:00:39 GMT -5
Hi
I'll throw my 2 cents in - comp is just fine as part of a tournament - provided everyone has a sense of what they have to think about going into the event.
Last year, of the 7 Canadians that went down, not one of us had an issue with the comp scoring that took place at DaBoyz GT.
Jay and the rest of the crew know what they are doing, so I trust them to handle all of this in a very reasonable manner. I don't think that anyone will be blindsided by any of the decisions made.
Cheers,
Nate
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Post by chumbalaya on Aug 20, 2010 14:12:13 GMT -5
See, I don't think melta is boring. I love seeing well built, optimized lists. It's the whole subjectivity of comp that bugs me.
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Post by crimthaan on Aug 20, 2010 14:37:33 GMT -5
Chum - I'm pretty sure by now that everyone understands your view point and respects where you are coming from, I'm simply stating that Jay is the TO and it's his call. How many times are we going to see the exact same argument stated? We understand you don't like comp, we understand you are not happy with how it will be a large part in the GT. No, it's not going to change. Look at how many threads have turned into arguments over this exact same issue, it's just getting redundant right now.
Got nothin but respect for anyone that is going to throw down dice at the tourny in November, I would just like to see an end to the arguments that's all, lol. I'm sure I'm not the only one either.
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Post by chumbalaya on Aug 20, 2010 16:24:14 GMT -5
I'm not arguing. The whole comp debate goes on and on and whenever it pops up I'll chime in with my 2 cents. I understand that a lot of folks like comp and that it'll be difficult to change anything this close to show time, but I see a lot of misinformation spread about how strong list = total not a very nice person and how soft scoring instantly makes everyone nice. That simply isn't the case. Just look at Nova. No comp, no sports and an overwhelmingly positive response from the majority of people attending.
Really, it all comes down to encouraging and rewarding all aspects of the hobby. Once you elevate one particular aspect over others you start alienating people. We're a small hobby, we don't need to be divisive towards each other.
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Post by Catachan Colonel on Aug 20, 2010 16:48:36 GMT -5
. Just look at Nova. No comp, no sports and an overwhelmingly positive response from the majority of people attending. Ya just look at a hard boys like tournament that caters to the battlepoints only crowd that only they went to and getting the tournament that they wanted have a positive review for it. And wow no way of quantifying that statement about the positive reviews. Look at the last monthly tournament here, 100% positive reviews and comp and sportsmanship were combined more than battle. Having a strong comp score tournament is comes down to encouraging and rewarding all aspects of the hobby. Once you elevate one particular aspect like battle and annihilation victorys over all other aspects you start alienating people. And Even DaBOYZ mostly caters to the battle point crown after all Battle and annihilation is 50% of your score thats more than twiceany other aspect of the hobby. We're a small hobby, we need to encourage all play styles and all types of tournaments both battle and theme/comp friendly. personally i would love a round of the tourney where you play your opponents army and vise versa. That way everyone gets to face what they thought everyone would enjoy playing against. And not trying exactly to say you are arguing but you have 5 posts in this thread alone thats more than twice the guy who started the thread. and more than the judge who was answering his questions. Even if not arguing your repetition may be verging on drowning everyone else out. (Not that i am in any way saying dont post. ) |
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Post by hyv3mynd on Aug 20, 2010 17:34:31 GMT -5
Except the first Golden Ticket given away at NOVA was to the player with the best combined BP+Appearance+Sports 33%/33%/33% so your comments are totally wrong Tommy. That was the end result of the main event. The second day was functionally an invite event to the top winning players.
Also, the assertion about local tourneys is a bit off too as I believe there was one player that went 3-0 and didn't make the top 3 because of his comp. He may not have been vocal about it but I'd wager it wasn't the result he was expecting. Not to mention the judge call on Steve at the last MG tourney knocking him out of "Best Overall" without any warning, or any similar call on any other player present. Or ask Jer about the same judge giving him a 0 comp score because he used (GW) horse cavalry to represent Thunderwolf Cavalry and (GW) spiders to represent Fenrisian Wolves. A lot of "fluffy" players would call that writing fluff and converting, especially since he had actual marines on the horses with WYSISYG wargear.
Not exactly how I would say you are
"we need to encourage all play styles and all types of tournaments both battle and theme/comp friendly."
In fact, I haven't seen any encouragement of all play styles and all types of tournaments except hosting the obligatory Ardboyz qualifier or friendly practice games for non-comp tourneys outside of Rochester.
I don't even think there was any arguing in this thread about the comp thing. Allan wanted a clarificaion on the comp versus theme thing. Jay said you guys are going to ding strong codex comp scores. He's the T.O. that's fine and he explained the environment of the tourney is to balance list, appearance, sports, BP's etc.
The OP has been answered. Jer got in his obligatory opinion on the subjectivity of comp. We have been reminded that nothing has changed. It's all fine and done. Making untrue and inflamatory comments about another tourney didn't help any.
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Post by moosifer on Aug 20, 2010 22:00:07 GMT -5
Seeing as how I will be driving out to the Land of Nick Tahoe's and Tap and Mallet all the way from beantown I thought I would throw in.
I am not a huge fan of comp. I was totally bummed to see that the BA list I had been planning on using would be getting me next to nothing in comp. A BA Army of everything in jump packs was my dream tourney army, probably not the most optimal army with relatively little in the way of anti tank in this vehicle heavy edition, but still with repetition and would be severely hampering my ability to compete for the win.
Then I realized we are all playing a game, with dice and hand painted figurines. Is it really worth 2 pages of discussion about a topic that is has been beaten deader than jamie kennedy's acting career?
Comp or no comp. Those are your choices. You want to win the ticket to next round you play by the rules of the qualifier. Sucks that you have comp, but it also shows you are a 10x better general than someone who won a glorified ard boyz tourney to advance on.
Jay, I look forward to seeing you folks in November since I havent seen you all since the boston massacre a few years ago. I look forward to seeing multiple hobin's getting drunk, visit the famous boldo's and get to play more 40k in a weekend than should be humanly possible. See you then
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Post by Catachan Colonel on Aug 20, 2010 22:51:44 GMT -5
Except the first Golden Ticket given away at NOVA was to the player with the best combined BP+Appearance+Sports 33%/33%/33% so your comments are totally wrong Tommy. Hey! you see that chumbalaya there was sportsmanship and other scores. You Were wrong and misleading. Just look at Nova. No comp, no sports and an overwhelmingly positive response from the majority of people attending. According to hyv3mynd there were those non-battle scores. No wonder people had a good time at the tourney and there was such positive responce. Given that the inclusion of the additional scoring makes for a positive reviewed tournament. We can only imagine how much more positive DaBOYZ reviews will be. |
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Post by chumbalaya on Aug 21, 2010 1:52:20 GMT -5
Not even close, A for effort though. Doing some research will definitely help you take care of that kneejerk problem, wouldn't want to look too ignorant, now would we?
Sportsmanship was done simply. After the first day, you rank your opponents 4 (Best) to 1 (Worst, or in most cases, Least Best). No chipmunking, no "I lost so he must pay", just a simple ranking system. Sports had no effect on actual tourney placing, just the Renaissance Man and Sportsmanship awards. Same with painting. The 2nd day, the finals, didn't even have Sports or Painting scored and those 2 games were probably the most fun of the entire tourney.
Comp was non-existent. Wait, you mean that I can take any legal option in my Codex without penalty? How innovative! And some self-righteous tool can't tank my score because he thinks trying to win is mean or he's colluding with his friends to cheat the system? Wow, I would have never thought of that!
Amazing, isn't it, how removing the easily exploited mechanics of the antiquated "hobby events" allows everyone to have a good time. No surprise shenanigans, no collusion, no whining about fluff/cheese/poor manbaby lost a game. Compete, show off your awesome models and have fun playing dollies with your fellow nerds.
Inclusive over exclusive, crazy stuff man.
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