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Post by skyth on Apr 25, 2007 11:34:01 GMT -5
22 of 30.
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Post by Wolf Lord Snorville on Apr 25, 2007 13:40:49 GMT -5
How do you come to that?
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Post by skyth on Apr 25, 2007 13:48:25 GMT -5
I'm saying that an IW army with 10 man las plas 10 man las plas 10 man missile plas 10 man heavy bolter plas 3 oblits 3 oblits Lord (speed and stature) defiler defiler pred destructor pred destructor probably fits in 1850 and is not much fun to play against. 26 of 30? oops...20/30... Loses points for duplicate elite, duplicate heavy, duplicate upgrades (The pred destructors) and not having any Fast, and 4 of the same troops choice. |
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Post by Wolf Lord Snorville on Apr 25, 2007 14:49:15 GMT -5
oops...20/30... Loses points for duplicate elite, duplicate heavy, duplicate upgrades (The pred destructors) and not having any Fast, and 4 of the same troops choice. ok... 1st... the army only has 1 troop choice so it automatically passes that rule. 2nd... ok we'll make it "friendlier" remove a defiler and pred and replace it with a vindicator and basilisk. 3 pie plates of perfect heavy support comp. And I find it funny that an army that can't have 2 fast choices is penalized for that that should bump it back up to 26/30. |
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Post by skyth on Apr 25, 2007 16:57:39 GMT -5
One thing to remember is that all the examples you're using are Chaos...Chaos is getting a new, nerfed, codex in September. Iron Warriors are going the way of the do-do. (So are my Alpha Legion  ) |
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Post by Wolf Lord Snorville on Apr 25, 2007 18:58:38 GMT -5
So it's ok to make a broken matrix as long as the codex is being redone before the tournament?
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Post by Ranger Dude on Apr 26, 2007 9:36:56 GMT -5
I have to point out that your matrix nerfs anyone who trys for a solid theme. My ranger force would be screwed here. I play a scouting eldar force. No place for guardians. Few aspect warriors. high on rangers and pathfinders.
The only way for me to avoid getting nerfed in your system is to take different sizes of units. What's the point of that. The size of the unit shouldn't matter other than to avoid min max. I don't have a problem with someone taking minimum sized squads as long as it's obvious they didn't do it for some gain somewhwere else. 6 min sized squads of anything is not a big deal. 2 min sized troop choices is. I have to agree that any matrix design has to incorporate theme into it somehow. This matrix is rather arbitrary like wolflord said. That's why I like the system doug was working on for a while. You had seperate comp for each thing you were trying to score: Fun, fair, and theme. If we were to build three matrixes or at least seudo-matrixes, based on these ideas, we could cover all bases.
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Post by skyth on Apr 26, 2007 20:00:52 GMT -5
So it's ok to make a broken matrix as long as the codex is being redone before the tournament? Well, considering all the examples I've seen try to break it that get even close are chaos... And regardless, it's still less broken than opponent scored comp. |
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Post by Wolf Lord Snorville on Apr 26, 2007 22:43:21 GMT -5
And regardless, it's still less broken than opponent scored comp. Because this way you could bring an nasty list with great comp and not get scored poorly for it... I get it... nuff sed. Epistolary - terminator armor, ooga booga, fury terminator command squad - 2 ass cannons w/ drop pod 8 man tactical las-plas 8 man tactical las-plas 8 man tactical missile-plas 5 man tactical missile-plas 5 man tactical heavybolter-plas Landspeeder squadron - 3 tornadoes 6 man Assault squad - vet sarge pair of lightning claws reclusiarch - most holy jump pack + terminator honors predator destructor - heavy bolters, smoke armor 5 man dev squad 2 heavy bolters dreadnought ass cannon, smoke, armor 5 man vetran squad las,plas, tank hunter 2000 points, 28 out of 30... wow... broke that one on first try with a different codex. |
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Iron Warrior
Moderator 
The Iron
Iron Within! Iron Without!
Posts: 2,573
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Post by Iron Warrior on Apr 27, 2007 1:19:48 GMT -5
MMMMmmmm 6 ass cannons. My fav! 3 las, 2 missle ,8 HB and 6 plas...MMMM MMM MMMM Smells like gouda! lol
Typical stand back shoot with 1 hard as rock counter assualt unit.
Seen it before way too many times. Gets old after the 13th hundred time ive played against it. Good job Wolf lord!
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Post by skyth on Apr 27, 2007 4:15:17 GMT -5
That's a good list, but no where near to over the top, so it deserves a decent comp score. Especially when it's lacking a key component to a devent sit back and shoot Marine list (The Master for the leadership 10).
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Post by Wolf Lord Snorville on Apr 27, 2007 5:45:59 GMT -5
That is exactly the type of army that we don't want to encourage players to bring.
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McCommander
Sergeant
The Dreamiest
For every one that falls, two shall take his place!
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Post by McCommander on Apr 27, 2007 7:21:09 GMT -5
Wolflord, that marine list is fairly standard. Like Ron points out we have all seen it a million times. It's just doing what marines do. Ask any standard marine player, it could be alot more broken than that. If your expecting to see less out of marine lists then that at a highly compeitive GT then your just going to be very disappointed. You can't expect people to bring crappy armies to a GT, but with a matrix you can try and tame them.
However you just demonstraited that player scored comp. doesn't work. You would probably rate that list as a 3 out of 10 where I would give it a 7 thinking that it's not really broken, it's just a standard sit back and shoot marine list. Boring in my opinion, but what I would expect at a GT.
Iron warrior,
Is this really that bad. Compair this to your standard iron warriors list. (by memory)
2 pie plates... 4 las (counting oblits), 1 missle. 5 HB when you use you havok sqaud. 1-2 auto cannon. ...and a bunch of plas, melta, and flamers mixed in. It's really kinda the same. My point is I would rate them in comp. about the same. Your's an 8, this one about a 7.
I still vote for a matrix although it may have to be done on a codex by codex bases.
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Post by Wolf Lord Snorville on Apr 27, 2007 9:13:50 GMT -5
That list is nothing more than a min-maxed space marine list with no other intent than scoring good on a rigid comp matrix and winning. What is the theme of the army? Win? There isn't one.
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McCommander
Sergeant
The Dreamiest
For every one that falls, two shall take his place!
Posts: 209
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Post by McCommander on Apr 27, 2007 10:16:29 GMT -5
Would it make you feel better if there was an abitrary paper hand out justifing the armies choices through fictional theme.
Fictional theme could be used to justify any basic codex marine army comp. So theme really doesn't apply in this case.
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