Knight Errant's Impetuous

[forsakenimp]

Here's a thread to spare the GT thread all the clutter.

The issue: The Knights Errant Impetuous rule. I don't know if I'm allowed to post it here, but you should be able to find it somewhere on the internet. A great site to visit is The Round Table, a bretonnian only board, which has a lot of info.

The two main arguments are that of RAW and RAI (Rules as Worded or Intended, respectively). It's going to help if you state which one you're arguing.

RAW-Charge range is clearly defined as the result on the dice plus the movement value of the unit. Using the rules as they are written (no interpreting), it's clear you roll to see if you're in charge range before testing. Should a future FAQ add the word "maximum" in, this would change.

RAI- This is where the dilemma comes in. When printed, this rule bypassed the way of possibly failing a charge in it's edition by letting you measure. The argument for rolling first in 8th is that it's intended that if you have to test, you're supposed to be within range of charging already.

FYI, this has been answered for the GT, and the answer is that you roll first and then see if you need to test. It seems the prudent answer, as it's the most closely supported via RAW and it has historical precedence of working the same as last edition. Then again, I may be biased ;-)

[boldo]

I think you have RAW misinterpreted as under RAW you would not roll for charge range until after you could declare charges. So before you roll charge range and maximum charge range are the same term.

[skyth]

Actually, by RAW, the impetuous has no effect. You can't roll for charge range until you declare a charge and your opponent has the chance to declare a reaction. Once you roll for charge ranges, it is too late to declare any more charges.

The best way to handle it is like Frenzy is handled. Same situation in 7th, in that you could never fail a frenzied charge unless your opponent fled. With Frenzy, you roll your check to see if you must charge the closest enemy that is in your possible charge range (IE 12" plus movement).

[forsakenimp]

Actually, I never have to declare a charge. In fact, if I declare a charge with this unit, Impetuous never has any effect.

It happens like every other special rule that causes charges outside the Declare Charges step, in that it's a charge that happens at a unique time. Also, boldo, I think you may be confusing raw and rai. Since Charge Range is explicitly defined within the BRB and no where does it mention max charge range equaling charge range under ANY conditions, any interpretation of them being the same would be rai.

"The best way" is subjective. I view that way as poor, as it not only violates the precedent for how this rule works AND the way that follows the letter of the law, but turns Impetuous into another already-existing rule, which seems a poor choice to me.

Here's another thing- I only have to charge if within charge range. Thus, I should never be out of charge range, correct? If I don't roll first, I could be within charge range but fail the charge due to being outside of charge range. The word maximum is never used, and if GW wishes to make that how KE work, they need simply add that one word in the FAQ.

[skyth]

If you're looking at precedence, you need to look at Frenzy, and what happened with it. Frenzy was treated the same way, assuming you failed your leadership test for the impetuous.

The fact is, the steps of charging are as follows:

Declare charge for unit
Opponent declares reaction
Opponent completes reaction
(finish declaring charges for all other units)
Roll charge distance
Move chargers

The problem is that you want to change the order of things where there is no permission given to change the order. Like I said, by RAW, it does absolutely nothing, as the only way to get a charge range is to first declare a charge and then have your opponent declare a reaction. By the time you are rolling, it is too late to declare charges.

[forsakenimp]

Skyth, thank you. That is the only alternative presented that uses the rules as written, that the rule would have No Effect due to units needing to be within an unknowable range. RAW-wise, I see this as a possibility as well.

My choice between rolling beforehand and between no effect therefore comes down to RAI. With all the deletion and modification in the FAQ, I believe that GW would simply tell us to ignore this part if it were not applicable. Also, I believe rolling first best captures how the rule was intended to be played when it was written.

The difference between frenzy and Impetuous is that with Frenzy, you have to declare a charge if possible. Impetuous only makes you test to charge if the opponent is actually within range, and only if you didn't charge with the unit.

I applaud Skyth for considering the issue and coming up with a well-reasoned answer that follows the rules. Your interpretation is one I would not feel slighted with if presented as an official ruling.

[skyth]

In 8th, Frenzy does not make you automatically charge. Instead it's a leadership test or charge the closest enemy unit.

[forsakenimp]

Correct, sorry, was just citing the important parts.