MajorSoB
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THE GRUMPY OLD MAN!
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Post by MajorSoB on Oct 17, 2010 20:23:44 GMT -5
I would like to clear the air here and indulge you in my own private rant so you can better understand why I come down on some of the posters hard at times.
Let's start off with this, 40K is a game just like its lesser counter part Fantasy that people play for fun and enjoyment. In my mind there is only one reason to partake of this hobby and that reason is to have fun. Yes, this is a hobby and gameplay is only one aspect of it. It is a rewarding hobby that I have enjoyed for years and I do try to encourage and grow it since I think it has alot to offer to the people that play. Throughout the years of playing I have made many friends and have shared in their lives both inside and more importantly outside the game.
Now every once in a while I tend to go off on someone here. Yep that's me and that is who i am, I admit it and own it. You might ask why I react the way I do and here is your answer in a nutshell.
Basically there are a few things that get me going but the ones that really get me are when I see one of my friends being attacked or when I see a new player or a younger player being corrupted with a bunch of info I consider BS.
There are people here who post ( or more recently don't post ) who have put a ton of time and effort into making Rochester a great place to play GW games. If you go throughout the country you will learn that there are many places that people have to drive several hours just to find a store in hope of a game. In Rochester we have several options meaning that if you want a game you can usually find one very close by. This is no small testament to the people who have sacrificed hours of their free time and money of their own to offer tournaments and prizes to help grow the game. Most any of the guys who wear DaBoyz t-shirts will take time out of their lives to demo the game to someone who is interested and wants to learn. These same guys also help people move into their new houses, have helped cover bills of others who are down on their luck, painted houses, and picked up friends whose cars quit on them as well. What I am trying to say is that there are some really decent people here who deserve a bit of respect instead of backhanded criticism because you disagree with them on comp, or you lost a tournament to them by one point or some other mindless reason for you to trash them.
My second trigger is the corruption of younger and new players. As some of you know I have a son who plays. He took alot of crap when he started playing and sometimes he was taken advantage of by less scrupulous adults who took advantage of him in tournaments. I have a soft spot for new players too, they are the future of this game. What I hate is when a new player is indoctrinated the cult of "Only play it cause its good and win at all cost". Most people who start this game do so cause they ran across some cool models that their friends played with or maybe they played the computer games by GW and found out that they made miniatures too. Whatever the attraction many new players start this hobby to have fun, not as some proving ground to help them collect "the win" that has eluded them all their life. When I see someone who only focuses on what is good it hurst since it immediately shuts out so much of this hobby that can be had. I want to see someone new play for the pure enjoyment of playing, not because someone told him this was good, or that was better.
Over recent years the internet has grow and had its impact on this hobby, and from my perspective not an entirely good one. While it has made it easier to find out about other gaming groups and tournaments, it also has opened the floodgates to information. It doesnt require a talent to log onto one of several websites and find out what the current optimized lists are that are being played. In my opinion this has hurt the game more than anything because it has removed creativity and focuses many players attention away from the hobby as a whole and on "the win". Even before the Dark Eldar codex has been officially released you have a myriad of internet geniuses crunching numbers and attempting to create "the list" that you play if you play Dark Eldar. All this crap hurts the hobby since it takes focus from fun and places it on "the win".
OK so let's bring this rant home. In summary i respect many of the people here and am very proud to include them in my group of friends. This hobby should focus on fun not winning. Think before you trash someone here of elsewhere just because you lost a game to them or that they hold a different opinion then yours. Discussions are good, flamewars can be fun too but they do get old and tired when it always is the same old crap you are complaining about. Help newer players to enjoy this hobby. Take time to see why they are playing, maybe you can learn a thing or two from them as well. Lastly, every once in a while post something positive here that might make someone else want to stop by and check out this hobby. Again, 40K and even Fantasy can be alot of fun, let's all get back to that and away from the negative aspects that we have given far too much attention to.
-Rant off
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Sanguinary
Sergeant
WOW, his son looks strangely like Shaun,
Posts: 341
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Post by Sanguinary on Oct 17, 2010 20:31:51 GMT -5
I hate you....
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Post by skyth on Oct 17, 2010 21:01:33 GMT -5
Think before you trash someone here of elsewhere just because you lost a game to them or that they hold a different opinion then yours. Advice you should take to heart.
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MajorSoB
Moderator
The oldest
THE GRUMPY OLD MAN!
Posts: 2,135
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Post by MajorSoB on Oct 17, 2010 21:05:12 GMT -5
Whatever... stand in line!
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Post by chumbalaya on Oct 17, 2010 22:42:48 GMT -5
I agree in a big way. It's a hobby, you're in it to have fun.
Everybody enjoys the hobby in their own way and they should be respected. I like to play games, I like to tweak lists and I like to compete more than anything. I like to build and convert minis, nothing too crazy, but the game is where I get my kicks. Painting is a chore and I don't have space to play at home, so building a table isn't really in the cards for now. I respect anybody who can paint better than me (anyone), convert better (anyone), and play better (anyone). How you enjoy your hobby is up to you and it's all good by me.
What bugs me is people forcing their own views on others. It's disrespectful, selfish and divisive. I'm not going to knock somebody if they paint better than me, nor will I expect them to come down to my level just so I won't have to work as hard to improve. Striving to improve yourself is just as important in this hobby as it is in life. I know I can do better and I'll try to as best I can. And yes, that applies to comp and listbuilding to. The very idea of it belies a lack of understanding of the game. There is no uber list, no cheese, just players and the lists they use. If you didn't come to compete, don't complain when you lose in a tournament. For friendlies at the store, just talk it over beforehand. I have a fluffy bunny list and a powergaming list, it all depends on the context of the game. Respect, people.
If you want a polite community, you have to be polite. People don't always have to agree; it would be silly to expect that. What's important is to act like an adult and respect your fellow dude, even if you disagree over toy soldiers.
Be excellent to each other.
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MajorSoB
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THE GRUMPY OLD MAN!
Posts: 2,135
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Post by MajorSoB on Oct 17, 2010 23:12:46 GMT -5
Be excellent to each other. ...and party on dude!!!! Props to you Chumby! Glad you took the time to read this and I also am glad we have some common ground established. You touched on competition and I wanted to elaborate. I see it like this most people who play enjoy competition and deep down like winning much better than losing, I mean who doesn't that is just basic human nature. The difference that you see now is how people go about winning. With the erosion of comp on the basic tourney circuit tournaments now seem to fall into the battle points plus painting scores, or strictly battle ( 'ard Boyz) style formats. Let face it sportsmanship rarely makes any difference. Some players only bring the best list they can while others attempt to play softer lists as a personal challenge to themselves. Both are valid to bring but honestly I can see the merits of rock hard and somewhat softer lists. Again, in my opinion optimization has limited the game and taken some of the fun from it. Follow me here: When I started playing tournaments my first out of town tourney was the Toronto GT, I believe 2004. It was 4th edition and there were 100 players, all with different armies. I dont remember seeing one repeat, and of the codexes represented there were several different builds from each. I played Witch Hunters then and my build was far different then the others represented. There was an element of fun in that you really had no idea what armies you would see. Cut to 2010. If you go to a tournament expect to see Leaf Blower Guard, Vulkan and his brothers ( guaranteed to be there several times!), Tervigon/Trygon spam, maybe a Lash list or two, Seer Councils on bikes, maybe some Kans and some Big Mechs to give them cover, Wolves with TWC, max missile long fangs, etc. What I am trying to say is that the game has somewhat evolved into a more predictable and stagnant environment where players attempt to out metagame what will show up and bring "the List" from their codex that out trumps the list of the other codexes present. Rarely now do you hear from your opponent " I played unit "x" cause they are great models, or there rules are fun" instead hearing " You never see "them" cause they just aren't any good." Something is being lost now in my opinion, maybe you can see it maybe you can't Funny, I got a game in today, and before the game I was asked how hard I was planning on building my list. Looking back it was odd since this was never really a question a few years back but now players definitely recognize and make concessions to accommodate this. I guess its a sign of the times huh?
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Post by chumbalaya on Oct 18, 2010 7:59:14 GMT -5
Now see, I disagree there. Balance in the previous editions was very wonky so stuff like comp and sports scoring was necessary.
5th ed is a whole other beast. The rules are the best they've been and the 5th ed Codices are very well balanced between each other. Older Codices really suffer from a lack of choice more than anything. A competitive Necron list run by a good player can give a SW list a run for its money, but the competitive SW list comes in many varied forms.
5th ed books bring a ton more options and viable ones at that. Take Nova for example, considered one of the top competitive events this past year. In the final 8 there were 4 SW lists and all of them were distinct in their composition and usage. I had my all foot Loganwing, somebody else had an all mech Njal army, somebody else had a hybrid foot/mech with Razorbacks and Wolf Scouts and the fourth had big units of TWC and Predators over Fangs. All distinct forces that showcase the potential that the newer books have. This is way better than 3rd/4th where you had 1, maybe 2 good builds and things flip-flopped between good and terrible every Codex.
The competitive depth of 5th is one of the main reasons I dislike comp. The others are its subjective nature and potential for abuse. Good comp to one person is bad comp to another. I've heard of lists coming back from the DaBoyz judges getting scores ranging from 30 to 70 for the same list! Sportsmanship is integral to any game, it's to be expected, but the way it is done now is simply too open to abuse. Nova didn't use comp or traditional sportsmanship scoring and it was probably the most fun event I've ever been to and a positive experience for the vast majority of those in attendance. Remove the potential for abuse and people can instead focus on competing and having fun.
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Post by hyv3mynd on Oct 18, 2010 12:20:37 GMT -5
Thanks for posting Doug. Understanding the history helps to understand the words and actions of a person or group. Not too unlike trying to understand why Israelis and Palestinians have such a hatred for each other without going over thousands of years of history.
Here's my history so you can have the viewpoint of a new/younger player.
I got back into 40k in March after taking 12 years off after highschool and college. I visited Millennium several times gathering information. Smitty was the one who convinced me Tyranids might be the best match for me. His customer service was great which is refreshing in todays world, especially since he engaged me on the sales floor and so many people in retail are afraid to get out from behind their counter.
So I bought the BRB and Tyranid codex and sped home to begin imagining my army. I threw down several hundred dollars at our local retailers and had my collection assembled and primed for the March tourney at MG.
You can imagine my surprise when I discovered you can actually be penalized by playing perfectly legal units and combinations. I was even more surprised when playing Horst, several people approached him and ridiculed his list and play style right in front of me, a new player.
Such was my introduction to comp and sportsmanship. A bunch of grown adults calling each other names behind behind backs and to faces.
Now, I got into the game to have fun. I have two tables in my basement and have people over regularly to have fun. When tournaments come around, I venture out, pay my fees, and play for wins. I'm not a WAAC gamer but I'm not sure what that means as is brings to mind sketchy tactics. By that definiton, I've never met a WAAC gamer. However, I don't see a problem bringing your best list and A game to a tournament to win some prizes.
In fact, every questionable tournament experience I've had revolve around comp and sportsmanship. I've seen scores blatantly favoritized by judges, scores "chipmunked" by players, and people go undefeated without recognition. I recognize there are different schools of thought on these issues, but I'll have to agree to disagree on those. It just seems silly to me when players who perform best at tournaments end up losing. What's the point of playing 3 games if earning 3 wins means nothing? I'm all for painting awards, but don't tie them into win/loss results.
Another example is a good friend of mine who doesn't post here. He brought his army to the July, the only 1850 points he owns. Ghazkull, 3 battlewagons, a bunch of boyz, and trukks. This guy has been my friend for 15 years and he's nicer than nice. He played the tourney and finished with 1 win and 2 losses. One of the opponents that beat him gave him a "bad game" mark. After beating him. This guy is not a bad sport, yet after beating him, his opponent had the balls (or lack of) to kick him while he was down and tell the judge that his losing list was too overpowered. My friend hasn't played a game since that weekend in july and backed out of going to the GT with me.
Did I mention all of the un-named transgressors in my stories are cornerstone members of "daboyz"? Jay maintains my respect because out of everyone, he has stepped up and admitted when something happened that shouldn't have. So yes, I bring these things up because I want to work through them and improve the environment. I've never attacked someone I've lost a game to. I only call people out for poor behavior or hypocracy.
I do make positive contributions, you can see them after each Millennium tourney. I even took pictures of all the beautiful tables and posted them. I've offered to have "terrain building" parties at my place to help prepare for the GT.
I hope some of that helps you understand my view points. I do often stand up for the underdog or less vocal. I am not someone who stands on the sidelines and let's people be wronged. I apologize if my words here in any way lend a negative vibe to the discussions, but I assure you my intent is only improvement.
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Iron Warrior
Moderator
The Iron
Iron Within! Iron Without!
Posts: 2,573
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Post by Iron Warrior on Oct 18, 2010 15:56:37 GMT -5
Your ad-hominem remarks are not needed Skyth.
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Post by skyth on Oct 18, 2010 17:27:15 GMT -5
I am amused that saying something is good advice is classified as an ad hominum.
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Post by "LAST FREAK'N DRAGON" on Oct 18, 2010 20:34:57 GMT -5
IT'S "DRAGON" TIME! HMMMMMMMMMMM' HERE'S AN INTERESTING BOOK; ____"WAR HAMMER 40,000!"
LET ME READ THE FINE PRINT: IN THE GRIM DARKNESS OF THE FAR FUTURE THERE IS ONLY WAR!
DOES THAT SOUND LIKE A FRIENDLY GAME, A HOBBY, LETS HAVE TEA!
IT'S MILITARY WAR GAME PEOPLE. MOCK KILLING THINGS. WHEN WAS WAR EVER FAIR, TO THE WINNER GO THE SPOILS.
YOU THOUGHT YOU PAID FOR MODELS AS ENTERTAINMENT, BUT THE TRUE IS YOU PAID FOR WINING, CRYING AND A HOLE IN YOUR POCKET.
ME, I'M A GUITAR PLAYER, YOU KNOW; WE ALL JUST WANT TO BE BIG ROCK STARS LIVE IN HILL TOP HOUSES DRIVING 15 CARS, THE GIRLS ARE EASY AND THE _____ BETTER STOP THERE. YOU'RE ALL SICK, ADDICTED KIDS WHO CAN'T DEAL WITH REALITY AND THAT'S WHY YOU GET SEVEN SMILES! ;D ;D ;D ;D_ ;D ;D ;D
NO SIGN OF INTELLIGENT LIFE ANYWHERE! 'DRAGON OOOOOOOOOOOOUT!"
P.S. "I'M STILL ONE OF YOU, PUKE GAG COUGH, I JUST HAVE A LOT MORE GRAY MATTER!
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MajorSoB
Moderator
The oldest
THE GRUMPY OLD MAN!
Posts: 2,135
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Post by MajorSoB on Oct 18, 2010 23:32:41 GMT -5
Hey Tommy, for that last time quit taking down my posts! If I want to tell someone to perform fellatio on me cause he is a whiny jerk with not enough grey matter to fill a thimble that is my right guaranteed by the Constitution, you know, freedom of speech, the First Amendment? Any of this sound familiar? The Nazis practiced censorship so what are you saying that you are a Nazi? Tell me it aint so...
On to more important business!
Well the Crazy Train has just arrived, yep the 9:34 Babbling Dragon to Insanityville is right on time! Good to see you my friend! If I did nothing else here at least I woke up the boards and got people reacquainted with their keyboards. Nice job with the incoherent thoughts and attempts at a point, yes you are one of us Dragon, you are my friend too, and you exist to show me that sometimes things in this world just dont make sence, you just have to accept them. Good to hear from you.
Chumby, I am gonna trump your argument in saying this, I have been there and you havent, therefore my well of knowledge and experience is infinitely larger than your since you do not have the experience I have to draw from. The 4th edition tournament environment provided a more varied, friendlier, and more balanced game that what currently exists in 5th edition. I have been to several different cities over a wide range of years and seen it. When we used to go to the GT's in Canada for instance your rarely had a clue what armies you might find, let alone what builds would represent those codexes. I can make a bet with you that out of the 100 armies coming to DaBoyz GT 2010 I could predict at least half of them by naming their core ( example, Vulkan builds, Leaf Blower variants, etc). If it was a non comp event I would say even more. Again I am not saying outright this is a bad thing but it is radically different to 4th edition, and in my opinion its akin to knowing what you are getting for Christmas ( or Hanukkah, Kwanza, or whatever you celebrate!). Part of the fun used to be seeing different armies and fighting them. You don't have to agree, and probably wont based on your limited experience, but when you hear some older gamers talking this is what they refer to.
Good to hear your perspective Aaron. You know everything you have said makes sense but what you fail to realize sometimes in your posts is that each and every one of us have been in your shoes as well. We all have dropped money on armies that we want to work, spent time painting and painting them only to have them become outdated with a FAQ or rule change. In the dark days of GW they used to discontinue rules for models you owned. Anyone out there have some Zoats they are still using? How are your Zealots doing Jay and Matt? I understand you love your army, but often I see a myopic view of things being discussed where the only thing you think of is how it affects your bugs. Case in point was the missions. Now when it comes to whining, hey we all do it each and every one. It has nothing to do with 40K its human nature at its best and worst. I dont know where you work but anywhere I have been the universal truth is someone is biatching about something of someone. Its just life. I guess here it is far more accepted to complain to someone's face or during the game than afterwards behind their back or in an angry post on a forum or blog. In the case when you felt you were "chipmunked" hey it has happened to EVERYONE here who has played in a tourney. You had an experience dropped on you that I hoped you learned from. You should have asked to see a list upfront. You should have clearly defined terrain. You should have called a judge to settle a dispute. Remember these things when you are playing next month because as much as you dislike the way you see people play here you will be exposed to gamers from all over and not everyone plays quite the same. Take it as a lesson learned and go out and play the perfect game that you play 100 times in your own mind.
As for being a hypocrite, nope that is not me! I am often wrong, seldom behave properly, argumentative, uncooperative, LOVE to irritate and stir the pot, I'm a bully ( right Skyth! ), help me out I know there must be more, quick contact me ex-wife she will add to the list. Yes I know I am not perfect but I don't think I ever told you I was. Sometimes I slip up and get upset because I am trying to help someone I consider a friend or a newer gamer and that is what I am talking about.
OK that's enough I need to work some.
Hey Ron, stop feeding the trolls!!!!!
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Post by "LAST FREAK'N DRAGON" on Oct 19, 2010 18:31:18 GMT -5
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Iron Warrior
Moderator
The Iron
Iron Within! Iron Without!
Posts: 2,573
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Post by Iron Warrior on Oct 19, 2010 20:08:26 GMT -5
Then what the Hell am I going to do with my 10 lbs bag of troll feed?
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Post by "LAST FREAK'N DRAGON" on Oct 20, 2010 13:57:07 GMT -5
"IF I ANSWER THAT, I'LL START ANOTHER WAR!"
HAVE A NICE DAY RON, CIAO! ;D ;D ;D ;D- ;D ;D ;D
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