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Post by hyv3mynd on Jul 17, 2011 19:25:16 GMT -5
I think it may be important to keep in mind that the goal is not to have everyone score a perfect 100. I don't know if 80 should be the norm for that matter either. I believe if you are going to have comp, you have to be tough on the scoring whether it is subjective based or rubric based. We have to keep in mind that there has been controversey over the comp scoring each and every year that we have had a "DaBoyz GT". Each and every year we have tried something new in how to apply the scoring and it has always resulted in some participants being unhappy with their own and others scoring to some degree. This has then been directed towards the people running the event. The key to the rubric is in customizing it to generate a desired effect in army creation. Lets look back at the year when a rubric was used to score the comp. The few controverseys appeared to stem from the fact that maybe the rubric wasn't strong enough and failed to penalize certain armies that "looked soft on paper" but were quite nasty on the tabletop due to the rubrics "subjectivity" in what at the time constituted good comp. The rubric also wasn't published or discussed ahead of time in great detail either so that participants could make selections. I think that if a "harsher and fairer more restrictive" rubric-which is published to the participants ahead of time is presented then almost all of the controversey will be difused. What little bit of controversey that would be left would have to be directed towards the event itself and not any of the organizers directly or the club for that matter. There will always be armies that benefit from any rubric but if you force every army to not duplicate their choices and represent the whole codex, an environment of fairness may be better achieved So I then poise this comment for thought - when was the last time you rolled up to the table and played someone who had utilized most of the choices from their codex and didn't have a one dimmensional theme (such as razorback spam, rhino rush, too many models to kill horde, etc) - and thought that their army was over the top? Is this what we want from our rubric? I don't know but I personally feel it is a good place to start. If we are going to impose point reductions, we have to be fair across the board for everything in any given army. No "waivers" for what we perceive as "compy" because that is being subjective. Impose harsh point restrictions so that only someone who goes out of their way to score well will benefit. Again, just thowing this out there as a point of view for others to consider and reflect on. Just one old gamers take. Either way, whatever the judges decide to enact, it is still a tournament to have fun playing in. As one of the very few people to be hammered with the comp hammer last year (placed like 39th out of 60 or so ) My one and only issue with the way comp was handled last year was that there was no published rubric AT ALL, merely "guidelines". This led to the appearance that comp was handled by a nebulous council of individuals who Definitely had their own axes to grind, My army list was given a "estimated comp" score of 50/100 and a "final comp" score of 24/100 when I had not changed a single thing in the list. I was never given a chance to alter it to avoid the 24pt comp set or a reason for the MASSIVE swing in its comp score. That said If it had stayed the same comp I would still have placed 39th (all else being equal). I like comp personally, but if it is to be a part of a tournament it must be published ahead of time, and be a checklist type setup (NO judges discretion). Otherwise it WILL result in some folks feeling abused, and generally POed. The Rubric posted on page1 might benefit from tweaking but it is very clear as to what gets dinged and what does not with NO room for personal pet peeves. (and as such I like it.) This is the most important statement IMO. Think of DaBoyz GT as a branded product. Because of discrepancies like the above, we ended up with several unhappy customers. Several comments on the outside forums we advertised on also indicated people were unhappy with comp. No tournament is perfect. NOVA had some tables with not enough terrain and an incident with the winner's list. WGC had time limits that were too short. ATC has a bad venue. Our terrain was pretty d**n good, time limits were perfect IMO, and our venue was quit nice. Despite the dramas with comp, we're still trying to make it work why? Because we want power builds to not dominate the feild? If we maintain consistency with terrain, time limits, venue quality, and eliminate comp, won't our customers have a better experience? They will be able to play what they want without penalty and won't be able to blame our judges for poor subjective scores or "having an axe to grind". WGC finished last weekend without wolves, guard, or blood angels in the top 3. The top 3 were strong lists, but not min/maxed or optimized to meet the standards of some of the "powergaming" bloggers. In fact, most people responded saying "how did that list win?" instead of recognizing the skill of the generals. Last year despite comp, the strongest players still placed. Sparks, goatboy, Ben M. They all gamed the system, got their comp scores up, and took the event anyways. People still brought the lists they wanted and I was one of them. I still saw several vulkans and played against a shrike list with 2 assault terminator units in 2 land raiders despite the forewarning about SC's and the event being comp. What I'm getting at is do we really need comp anymore? Here's some tournament results from around the country this year by codex: www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/372719.pageAlmost every codex is represented in the top 3 from the various tournaments despite lack of supporting information on on many participants used each codex. None of the big events I've been to or seen were won by min/max spamming lists. Special characters are prevalent, so just ban them like ETC does if you wish. I still believe the dynamics of the 3 book missions, 3 deployment types, and built in FoC restrictions are all the balance we need. FWIW, MVB and others have also written extensively on how battle points encourage power gaming. When you have primary, secondary, and tertiary methods of earning points, people are encouraged to massacre their opponents and win by the widest margin. Combine this with a comp system and you end up with a bunch of people trying to game the system, gain as many comp points as possible, and still massacre their opponents. If you move to a win/loss format without comp, people can bring what they think they need to win without worrying about earning a massacre every game and could actually encourage people to play what they like more than what they need to win.
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Post by crimthaan on Jul 18, 2011 8:05:22 GMT -5
Well this was certainly an active weekend for this particular subject. While I haven't talked to the others about the comments so far I'll give my own INITIAL thoughts on some of the thoughts here. Aaron - I know you don't like that we comp our event, your last post even saying that it's no longer needed but the fact still stands that comp is not going away. I was intrigued how you discussed WGC's winning lists and how people didn't give credit to good generalship. Sparks, Ben M, Goatboy had anything from "perfect comp" Ben had a 78 and Sparks had a 86 out of 120. They won not because they "played the system" but because they are some of the best players in the game at the moment. They proved that even with "comped" lists they are capable of beating people through good generalship. We're looking for codex exploration, not simply trying to stop min/max or MSU (comp being around before these phrases). IronWarrior - I know you are frustrated with the idea of a rubric and how people will simply build their list to this system (a thought many people have brought up) but there is simply no other way of taking out perceived variable that people who score low may see. Trying something universal is while not ideal it takes the judges out of it. If you score low on a comp it's your OWN FAULT, there is no way it can come back on the judges and TO. Also, you commented on the loss of fluff and theme and I say that these and comp are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. Last years perfect example was a list that had Lysander with 3 units of scouts in Land Speeder Storms and the rest Terminators. The army was themed perfectly with the idea that scouts would go out finding a target and the chapter's elite would teleport in and clean house. While it was a great THEMED list it still received a comp score below 50. Why? Because out of a codex with nearly 20+ options only 5 options from the codex were used. That list was a perfect example why comp theme are completely different. If you want to have a theme event based around fluff than we should discuss a narrative event for future GT's. Joe - I know you were half kidding/half serious dinging units in Razorbacks vs full units in drop pods or Rhino's but I can say with fairly decent certainty that it wont happen. A dedicated transport is a dedicated transport. I see no difference between someone taking 6 razorbacks compared to another player taking 7 drop pods . Shaun - So sum up your post would you say that you would support a stricter and restrictive rubric with NO judge scores to be handed out compared to the format we are working with now? Again to everyone commenting thank you for your input and feedback. Everyone EVERYONE in DaBoyz knows that comp is a touchy subject across the 40k community and that there is no perfect way to score it. Please just appreciate that we are trying our best to get this down. We know we aren't going to make everyone happy but in all honesty I don't think that's the point of what we are trying to accomplish. We are trying to make it as fair as possible with as little of subjectivity as possible.
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Smitty
Sergeant
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Post by Smitty on Jul 18, 2011 9:05:00 GMT -5
Ok so the point of this thread was to get suggestions on how tweak or make this rubric better. There is not enough time to provide codex specific rubrics unless DA BOYZ as a whole help set this up. A majority of the surveys last year said they would like to keep comp but they would like a better guide lines and not 100% subjective. How do we give better guide lines, I don't know other than a Rubric. If any of you would like to actually help instead of female dog you can contact Jay, Andy or myself. The reason for keeping the 20 judges points was to help reward those that tried to comply with the comp and ding those who broke the system. I challenge you all to help, be part of the solution instead of the easy way of just complaining. Help me make this a better tourney for our Club, I want this event to be successful. I am free most Monday & Thursday nights, most Saturdays and very limited Sundays.
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Post by Staff on Jul 18, 2011 9:48:44 GMT -5
I'll volunteer to help with the codex specific rubrics if thats the direction we are headed.
I have first hand experience playing Imperial Guard, Space Wolves and Codex Space Marines.
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Post by sambutler on Jul 18, 2011 13:17:23 GMT -5
I think the dedicated transport number restriction should match the troops choice number (I.e. 3, and 3 respectively) other than that I think its about as good as a "universal" comp rubric can get.
Also as I stated before (in case it got lost) I APPROVE OF COMP it adds another layer of complexity to the game.
Also I will repeat my statement about "flex" points from judges. They are not the greatest idea (unless the circumstances they are awarded under are explained in advance to everyone).
Opinions are like...... Noses. (everyone has at least one and they usually smell)
I intend to attend DaBoyz again this year (I'd have already purchased a ticket if they were available.) Regardless of what the rubric ends up looking like. I would still intend to attend even if the comp system had not changed from last year.
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Iron Warrior
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Post by Iron Warrior on Jul 18, 2011 13:33:53 GMT -5
Im not entirely correct on this but were you not the person that went out to thier car after the GT and in the parking lot did a little video that looked like you were about to cry over getting a low comp score at a GT? If you are that same person then read on. If not, I apologize for the mistaken identity and the following does not apply.
I remember you and your army, because you came up to the judges table after the event and argued your point. We gave you our feed back and justifications of why you recieved what you did. You took Lysander, captain of the 1st compant of Imperial Fists. 1st company is the Terminator company. You took scouts and speeders, they are from the 10th company aka the scout company. I can see maybe taking a few but you did terminators and scouts. 1st and 10th. You claimed you were playing an Imperial Fist Army of the 1st company led by lysander. Then you also had Torias Telion, Brother-Sergeant of the Ultramarines 10th Company. You knew before hand we were penalizing mulitple characters but you took two anyways, You put two diffrent character from two diffrent companys, from two diffrent chapters in the same army and wanted good comp for it. Im sorry but I dont see it. I have one thing to say to that:
I dont see how its any fault of mine, when I continiously score very high in comp at every tournament I go to. Then when I want to play in rubric comp my score plumits. This doesnt make any sense to me what so ever. Why should I have to completly restructure my armies that continioulsy score well in comp becuase some people want to appease the power gaming friends. I say its favoritism. Plain and simple. Daboyz is leaning towards no comp. Its been a small evolution each year in that direction. Rubric is just another step that way. No way does a rubric encourage fluff, orginality, fun armies or games. It only puts a limit on what OP or under costed stuff we can fit within those limits. Im sorry to say but its looking more like Da'Ard Boyz than Da'Boyz I used to know 3-5 years ago.
As for complaining or "pregnant dogging" As an orginizer you are expected to take some flak, critisism and comments you may not like. Its apart of being an orginizer. Everthing in the end falls back upon yours and your assosicates shoulders. I did my part last year, for what it was worth. I listened and answered questions comments and complaints. I did as I was told and saw what went on. Its not all fun and games and at times it down right frustrating. And I know and I hope you do as well. You just cant please everyone. You are always going to have people that dislike it one way or another. With the huge diversity of people in this hobby there is no way your going to be able to make everyone happy.
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Post by crimthaan on Jul 18, 2011 13:48:12 GMT -5
Nope, that wouldn't be me my friend though I WILL say that was the list I am talking about. I forgot about the Ultramarine character, but my view on his list stands. Fluff wise and theme wise I think his list was fairly solid (especially if you have read the Black Library Novel "Sons of Dorn" which specifically details a small unit of Imperial Fist scouts from 10th company calling in Lysander and the 1st Company veterans to wipe out a target). The only problem I see with that list now THEME/FLUFF wise was the inclusion of an Ultramarine character. But anyways. (also on a side note I'm a local player, you and I player against each other at the lock in, I force weaponed your Warboss, LOL)
Although I wanted to avoid sounding like the dbag judge I will say this once to clarify just as Smitty did. This thread is meant for the DaBoyz community to see what we are trying to do Comp wise and give us feedback on it. This thread is NOT a area to cry about comp IN ANY FORM, whether you believe that the event is too comped or not comped enough. Ultimately DaBoyz are a community of friends and I want to see it remain that way. Everyone has their opinion on comp but there is no reason to nerd rage at friends about it. The GT is suppose to be FUN, not something to get angry at each other over.
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Post by Krusty (zack) on Jul 18, 2011 15:07:12 GMT -5
its a sensitive subject, im not going to get into who played what and scored what, or who did what after previous tournaments. honestly, what it boils down to is irrelevant examples that dont help us with hosting a good event this year. so im just going to put this how it i think it will just make a better tournament:
splitting judge scoring and rubric scoring, with an almost equal amount of points for each. using a rubric not far from the one posted, that may or may not hit an army regardless if it is 'themed' or not. judges portion should be scored blindly of whos list it is, or what other judges scored, averaged between a few judges scores. basically, rubric score + average of 3 judge scores will give you a final point value.
judge scores wiill have enough sway to even out hard rubric hits on themed armies, and it should eliminate the 'stealth cheese' factor, and people complaining about getting hit hard due to 'axe grinding'. no one will get a perfect score, it will be possibly for someone to get close to scoring a 0 if necessary, and it takes enough opinions and factors into account to create 'fair' scoring.
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Garou24
Chapter Master
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Post by Garou24 on Jul 18, 2011 15:11:52 GMT -5
My thoughts:
This needs some more tweeking, it would be great if we could get a Codex Rubric for each army, since this blanket Rubric seems to really hurt many armies more than it helps.
Take Chaos, I take a huge hit for 2 of the same unit for elite and fast attack regardless of options. I have a couple Chaos Dreadnoughts I run and Chaos Spawn. They are fun cheap options and one of the worst units in the game, but if I take 2 of them I get a -20 point hit?
So OK I don't take those units, the Rubric rewards me for taking less Elite units anyways. So where do I put these extra points? I guess into the Troops choice. But then I take a hit for giving them Transports? So I shave points off my Elite and Fast attack section to avoid a hit and end up taking 5 units of Chaos troops, say 1 from each legion and an undivided unit. But then if I give 3 out of my 5 troops a rhino, that's another -10 points. It just a rhino, Chaos doesn't have drop pods or razorbacks, so its not like I am getting much out of it other than a quick way to deploy my units. I still have 2 units, another 20 men not in a rhino.
SO I have invested my points into troops due to taking a penalty for having Elites and Fast attack, and then I take a penalty for having too many transports for my troops. And its a mix of troops at that, to fit a theme. I would really be in trouble if it was the same troop!
Which bring me to my next train of thought, I could always play my necrons! I played them in the first DaBoys GT I went to. But then I take all kinds of huge hits there for taking an army that stands no chance of winning games. That's where Army specific Rubrics would come in handy again.
Lets look at my HQ choice for the Necron.... whoops just 1 HQ. Well that's fine since I get a +10 points for taking just 1. But well my HQ is the only model that gets a Resurrection Orb, a key item for any Necron army. So let take another HQ as a backup, since the Necron Lord is a pretty piss poor HQ. Maybe I will give this Lord different war gear and put him in my Flayed ones or Pariah units for fun.. crap.. 2 of the same HQ.... - 15 Points. Well nuts, scrap that Idea... maybe I will take a special Character... awe nuts! both my special characters are over 201 points, so that's -30 for just having 1 in my army. Even if he was the only HQ and I scrapped my lords all together that's -15 points still. And I am just on my HQ section.
OK hmm what to do.. well lets just gimp myself with 1 lord and take my +10 points.
Let see how I fair in the Elites section.. hmm necrons need another unit or model of the same type to get their We'll Be Back roll.. So I better take 2 units.. oh wait.. f**k.. -20 points. Well I didn't want to use the most important army wide rule in my codex anyways.
Fast Attack the best section of my book, Destroyers! Ok ok, I know they don't want to have me spam destroyers, so let just take a unit of Wraiths! OK hmm wait I can only take a unit of 3 wraiths... hmm 1 wound a piece will not last me very long, I better take a second unit to get a We'll Be Back roll on those... oh nuts... -10 points.
Alright time to just load up on troops! Forget elites and Fast attack. Let look into the troops section. So I Have a choice of Necron warriors and.. wait... its just necron warriors... hmmm. Well nuts, now if I take a bunch of warriors.. my only choice in troops, I take a penalty... but at least according to the little wording next to troops, its only half the normal penalty... well that makes me feel better.
So the rubric hurts Hard lists, but then it will hurt soft lists too and for some codex like Necrons, you have no choice, Take 2 of the same unit... as if we have any other choices in that codex, and get your We'll Be Back roll, or mix a ton of non-related units and deal with small 3 man units that get no We'll Be Back roll.
These are just my thoughts on the 2 codex I would be playing at the GT. I am all for comp, I like balanced, fun lists! I also love to convert and paint, so I pick many of my lists based off the cool models I have. Example 2 Forge World Chaos Dreadnoughts, models are spend most of my games shooting my own units, and now in the GT they can shoot my own units and take 20 points off my score.
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Post by crimthaan on Jul 18, 2011 15:26:46 GMT -5
Garou, remind me at the GT to buy you a beer good sir, THATS the sort of feedback we need! I'm sure we'll take this all into account when we finalize the rubric (something that we would love have done within the week or 10 days)
Again, beer is coming your way my friend!
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Iron Warrior
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Post by Iron Warrior on Jul 18, 2011 16:03:29 GMT -5
I wish to adresses this a little further. The judges (or dbag judges or perhaps im the only dbag your were refering to.) were handed a list and nothing else. There was encouragement to do a little wirte up, do a little extra things. You know what may have swayed the judges if indeed he was trying to portray that his army was from that book. Perhaps a little write up, Hey maybe even display the book near his army and explain the reason he took that list. But he didnt. He didnt claim it was from the novel you say it is. He didnt justfy any thing in his army. He only claimed it was in his opinion compy and that he should have gotten a better score. Fact still remains, we told everyone before hand special characters were going to be penalize. Everyone knew ahead of time. I still stand by what I gave him. Alot of people agreed with me and apparently so did the other judges. Anyways last years results are done and said. Its in the past.
This lock in you claim you force weaponed my warboss. I dont remember you. I dont even know who you are. The name is not familar. The last lock in I went to was a team tournament I played Against Deamon/Nids, Nids/Nids, Orks/DE and Tau/Deamons. So im sorry you didnt force weapon my boss at that lock in. Seems we both have a case of mistaken identity. Sorry.
Name calling...mmm yes. Now the degenearation of this topic really begins. I wont lower myself to that level.
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Smitty
Sergeant
Marines die, thats what we're here for, But the Marine Corps lives 4ever & that means YOU live 4ever
Posts: 324
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Post by Smitty on Jul 18, 2011 17:13:23 GMT -5
I would like to thank you RON for freeing up my schedule this fall. I refuse to take any more people's crap for something I am volunteering to do especially yours. I am tired of everyone's including YOUR accusations & digs about stuff that supposedly happened or that you think happened last year. I'm tired of hearing that I am trying to favor outsiders and when you all really have no clue what I'm thinking.
I was desperately trying to stop hard boyz from showing up to the event. Eric H. and I are the ones that said we should have a min score to even show up to our event other wise we don't want your money. I was trying to make a method that would ease the work load of the judges. I was trying to come up with something to help explain our views on comp for new players in the area and outsiders. I also said there will not be a split tourney because I don't want to cater to the non-comp players. You want no comp go to the thousands of other tournaments across this country. But I guess that means I was trying to favor others and make it an 'ard boyz event, right? I mean isn't that what you say I'm doing?
Just like last year I'm throwing this out, any time anyone and I mean anyone wants to tell me what you think you know about my intentions I will be more than happy to do this face to face like men. I will tell you, I wont sit here quietly as people like you take shots at me for something I was doing for the community. I'm disappointed that people that have help in the past and know what it takes to put this on are some of the ones cause problems and not being part of the solution.
Remember people it takes no spine at all to spout rumors, slander, pass the blame behind a computer screen.
On another note I wanted to thank those who were helping me with this rubric this year. I hope that things go smoothly for those who run this event and they don't fall victim to all the negativity our own club spews at volunteers trying to make a fun event for everyone.
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Post by crimthaan on Jul 18, 2011 17:22:05 GMT -5
I wish to adresses this a little further. The judges (or dbag judges or perhaps im the only dbag your were refering to.) were handed a list and nothing else. There was encouragement to do a little wirte up, do a little extra things. You know what may have swayed the judges if indeed he was trying to portray that his army was from that book. Perhaps a little write up, Hey maybe even display the book near his army and explain the reason he took that list. But he didnt. He didnt claim it was from the novel you say it is. He didnt justfy any thing in his army. He only claimed it was in his opinion compy and that he should have gotten a better score. Fact still remains, we told everyone before hand special characters were going to be penalize. Everyone knew ahead of time. I still stand by what I gave him. Alot of people agreed with me and apparently so did the other judges. Anyways last years results are done and said. Its in the past. This lock in you claim you force weaponed my warboss. I dont remember you. I dont even know who you are. The name is not familar. The last lock in I went to was a team tournament I played Against Deamon/Nids, Nids/Nids, Orks/DE and Tau/Deamons. So im sorry you didnt force weapon my boss at that lock in. Seems we both have a case of mistaken identity. Sorry. Name calling...mmm yes. Now the degenearation of this topic really begins. I wont lower myself to that level. I was calling myself a dbag man, you need to chill lol. You also played against me (and my blood angels) against Doug son and his Daemons first round of the lock in. Meh, it is what it is.
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Iron Warrior
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Post by Iron Warrior on Jul 18, 2011 17:31:30 GMT -5
Smitty do you really want to open this can of worms to the public right here and now, becuase I have no issues and saying what was done. I have kept my mouth shut out of what little respect I have for this gaming orginization and the few members I respect. If you want to turn this into a pissing contest I will be more than happy to ablige. Face to Face or behind a screen.
I was there last year, I did my part like I said I would, I stood by every descion I made good or bad. I spoke up, I went over countless lists with you and everyone else about the comp. There were huge issue that I whole heartedly disagreed with and I know you did to. But I was the one that spoke up and stood firm on the subject. I do know whats going on. I've seen it. Someone who was supposed to be a judge saw it, thats why he quit and refused to be assosiated with the judges early on. I should have done so too. He was the smart one. Others were there when that atrocity of a comp discussion happened. How can you sit there and tell me favoritism is not being a card being played when you at one point in the GT last year had to walk away becuase you were furious with one judges actions. We can go ask a store owner that was there.
Note, I did not come out and specifiacally name you as the one who is favoring certain play styles, people or armies but I bet theres some influence there from certian parties.
I am not getting involved in this years GT because of several reasons. One was back in the first get GTs it was common knowledge that diffrent people from the club would help run the events. Hence why diffrent judges were picked each year. I had my run and now its done. Another and probably more important reason is What I saw last year sickened me. And it had to do with comp. It was that night we got together, it was the day at the tournament. I have no problems saying this to your face, or anyone elses face. But if you want to bring this public I will be more than happy to start naming names and saying what went down. So dont give me that martyr attitude. You know full well what I am talking about. So Thank you Smitty for your input, I gave you mine. Like it or not.
if you want to contiue this here go ahead and post a reply or if you want to do it in private then PM me. Or you have my number, give me a call or set up a time you would like to talk about it. Up to you.
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Post by skyth on Jul 18, 2011 18:03:11 GMT -5
Let see how I fair in the Elites section.. hmm necrons need another unit or model of the same type to get their We'll Be Back roll.. So I better take 2 units.. oh wait.. f**k.. -20 points. Well I didn't want to use the most important army wide rule in my codex anyways. Eldar Fire Prisms suffer the same issue (You need two to take full advantage of a rule). Though, granted, an army able to use the special rule (Combined fire or a better version of WBB) is a more capable army than the same army not able to use that rule. That being said, Necrons should have things that mitigate things in the matrix due to their limited choices.
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