pogysnacks
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Jeremy Plisk ..um Orks>everything else
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Post by pogysnacks on Mar 7, 2012 20:24:17 GMT -5
I already know there has been infinite discussions on this topic, seems like beating a dead horse but i want to, after discussing this same topic in terms of game-wide balance with guys around here, see how others see it. Grey knights as a book i feel are unit by unit extremely well balanced, some being slightly overpowered in some aspects, see cleansing flame and grenades, but i do not see them as unbalanced as specific guard builds, or even some space wolf builds.
Grey Knights have units that excel in every phase of the game, one of the glaring weaknesses being long-range shooting, minus psyriflemen, and razorbacks, but in order to get the long range shooting, you need to give points up somewhere else..Ive been playing orks and draigowing down here, and by no means do net lists in the hands of a casual player stomp me..the complaint is knights are super OP, id disagree, some aspects of the codex are, but in comparison to Guard or Space wolves, you have to pay serious points to bring the pain. Henchmen can be nasty, but cost comparison to grey hunters, or vets they arent nearly as reliable, and dont pack the same punch. Purifiers, probably the best unit in the game, are expensive, yes cleansing flame is brutal, but theyre so d**n expensive and they come in cardboard transports, the usual 6 man squad is not so hard to kill. Nothing minus the dreadknight and Pallies are that difficult to kill, there is so much high powered shooting out there that you can blow them off the table, guard can do it quite easily, dark eldar, space wolves, blood angels, nilla marines, hell even chaos w oblits can crunch those bad boys...Yes they excel at pretty much everything, but are they on the same level of "broken" as other armies can be? NO (seriously read the IG codex). Find ways to beat them, they still take a crafty general to use effectively
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sinistermind
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Post by sinistermind on Mar 7, 2012 22:00:54 GMT -5
I agree for the most part, im not one to complain or compare what codex's are "broken". i do play grey knights and also IG and nids. and no matter what codexes are strong or new people will play what they want and there mindset towards the game will dictate the kind of list they choose to build.
although my one gripe in the entire game has to be longfangs or at least when taken in 3 units
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Post by Catachan Colonel on Mar 8, 2012 9:36:15 GMT -5
I don't think you can discuss the "over power" of grey knights without at least talking about the points for troops.
lets see what is a grey knight its a tactical marine (basically 15 pts each) + storm bolter (3,5, or 10 points upgrade) depending on where you look, + power weapon (lets say 10 points) plus psychic powers (x points in value) + Aegis (y points in value) plus preferred enemy rule (z points in value) oh wait those are not just power weapons on everyone those are FORCE weapons. (q points in more value)
granted a tactical marine has combat tactics so we will call toe tactical marine 15 pts +w points in value.
so a Joe grunt grey knight at 15 +(13-20) points +(x+y+z+q) is suppose to be equivalent to 15pts + w. In the codex they are the exact same cost. And flatly I bet a lot of people would agree that that's crazy. We can argue over who has better upgrades and all that but if the base cost of both most basic troops is way off how will anything else have a standard for comparison.
I am not saying that grey knights are unbeatable, and I see in them a weakness to multiple small unit armies especially ones who have crap armor saves and crap initiative. But I also think there is a lot of legitimate gripes here.
my first $0.02
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nutter
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Post by nutter on Mar 8, 2012 17:44:57 GMT -5
Second what he said
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Post by Goldeagle on Mar 8, 2012 19:24:32 GMT -5
Joe Grey Knight is really 20+(13-20)+ (x+y+z+q), but otherwise Tommy makes a good point. Its funny that few Grey Knight players view it from this perspective as it seems that Strike Squads are often treated as a piss poor option.
I'm also not saying that all these players are wrong either because it is likely that there is a diminishing returns principle at play here. Who believes a typical grunt Grey Knight is worth 50 points in game terms as opposed to the 20 they are currently costed at (figure arrived at by taking a wild stab at summing the equation)?
Bottom line is that any perception of OP Grey Knights is not because of their undercosted troops options, excluding lists based on Henchmen and Purifiers as troops of course.
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pogysnacks
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Jeremy Plisk ..um Orks>everything else
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Post by pogysnacks on Mar 8, 2012 20:32:43 GMT -5
True story, considering how i dont hear many complaints at how cheap IG vets are in comparioson...nuts take 10 w 3 melta, or plasma, w demo, and they have the potential to pretty much destroy grey knight troop choices in one round of shooting... I agree that there are legitimate gripes, but not from strikeknights being so undercosted in a metagame full of undercosted troops that outperform elites of editions past. Strike knights arent a very common commodity on the tabletop, while paladin centric draigo wings, purifier spam, and henchment lists are are all the craze..hell if youre opponent is stocking up on strike squads than youre lucky, because that means less of the nastier things (silver lining? no pun intended). The gripes shouldnt be about the units in the codex, theyre f@#$ing grey knights: THE BEST OF THE IMPERIUM, and the book was written by a fanboy. The biggest problems in the book arent unit costs, theyre powers such as cleansing flame, warp rift, sanctuary, and shrouding...all the special grenades, and the biggest one i feel is PSYBOLT AMMO, holy hell!! Adding an easier probability of wounding to assault 2 weapons, on unts than can devestate someone on the charge means the difference between that one or two wounds preventing your more than likely small unit to get fisted (yay fisted!!!) also allows weapons like heavy bolters to actually pen light vehicles...+1 str on shooting is rediculous..anything else anybody? Im liking the discussion, its minus the bias and nerd raging trolls that pop up everywhere else (insert chumbalya)
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MajorSoB
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Post by MajorSoB on Mar 8, 2012 22:17:36 GMT -5
That last name you mentioned, never say it again. He's like Beetlejuice and we all know what happens if you say that three times in a row...
To add to the Grey Knight discussion, I do agree that it isnt the basics that is such a problem but that several units get halberds for free or a low cost of 5 pts that allows them to strike at initiative 6. While it doesnt affect some armies as much or at all ( IG, Orks ) it is huge when fighting armies like Marines, Eldar, DE and the like since now the GK strike at the same time or better with power weapons. 5 pts is a great trade off.
Also like I mentioned in my latest PM to you, I do think that Necrons will change this dynamic. There are a few lists out there now that have been winning with some regularity. I don't believe it to be some fluke but a new wrinkle in the current meta.
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Post by Goldeagle on Mar 9, 2012 7:39:06 GMT -5
Agreed - having the halberds at +1 initiative and limiting the psybolt ammo to only working on bolters, and storm bolters like last addition (maybe heavy bolters too, but definitely not assault cannons and autocannons) would have made the codex much more balanced. Otherwise, except for psychotrope grenades, the rest is pretty much just good Grey Knight flavoring (spoken as a long suffering Grey Knight veteran).
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Post by Iron Dragon on Mar 9, 2012 9:51:35 GMT -5
i don't think grey knights are overcosted... my space marines should just be 5pts per model. that'd make me happy. doesn't even have to be all marines, just mine.
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nutter
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Ben "Ginger Gotee" Lucko
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Post by nutter on Mar 9, 2012 15:11:46 GMT -5
It could also be marine might get cheaper in 6th ed, going along with my theory that there gonna make the games "Bigger"
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MajorSoB
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Post by MajorSoB on Mar 9, 2012 15:25:30 GMT -5
my space marines should just be 5pts per model. that'd make me happy. doesn't even have to be all marines, just mine. Best suggestion ever!!!!
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pogysnacks
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Jeremy Plisk ..um Orks>everything else
Posts: 239
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Post by pogysnacks on Mar 9, 2012 19:51:01 GMT -5
yea i can see marines going down in points next edition especially with the current way matt ward is doing codices, so lets expect something stupid like 12 point tactical marines....because everything in the marine codex is sooooooo overcosted right? I agree wholeheartedly that grey knights would be better off with psybolt ammo nerfed and halberds only being init. 5, that way units that dont wear power armor that are actually fast (wyches, harlequins...etc) can strike first like they should Ben theyll be making the game "bigger" by doing the same thing they did with fantasy essentially, but instead of monstrous infantry theyll be including the ability for players to take units from imperial armor books, but it would still be restricted because of the force organization chart. Force org could be switching to percentages which would do some good.. Anyways...grey knights arent unstoppable, but obviously there are balance issues.. New forum rule: Marine players cannot female dog about other codices, take your 3+ invuls, and spammable everything, mix it with vulkan and just please, for the love of god stop crying (unless you play dark angels or black templar because you were obviously playing them before the FAQ and have suffered enough) Fleet rules are changing, as well as armor/invul saves rules, and cover obviously...just a few things through the grapevine.. oh yea and flyers will be much harder to kill
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MajorSoB
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Post by MajorSoB on Mar 10, 2012 5:21:54 GMT -5
.. oh yea and flyers will be much harder to kill Excuse me folks, I got to start assembling my 9 Valkeries for 6th edition...
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pogysnacks
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Jeremy Plisk ..um Orks>everything else
Posts: 239
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Post by pogysnacks on Mar 10, 2012 19:48:25 GMT -5
Vendettas*
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Post by Horst on Mar 10, 2012 23:27:15 GMT -5
I'm going to have a huge chunk of change ready for 6th edition... got a couple of commission jobs to do (I don't even paint that well... people just lazy!).
Can't wait to see what the most powerful army is, and buy it. As long as its not eldar. I don't care how good that codex is, I refuse to play them ><
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