40k vs. Fantasy

[pogysnacks]

Now this belongs in the rules in tactics section simply because its a balancing discussion, followed by a universal book discussion, and personal opinions. Now again i like the discussions between all of the players on this site, because, for the most part vs. other forums, the discussions presented here are much more mature, and definately more interesting.
Now in my personal opinion i feel that fantasy and 40k rule sets, per updated editions, share universal similarities, say 7th edition fantasy, and 4th edition 40k shared game mechanics that favored some armies specifically over others, while the 5th edition rule set, and the 8th edition rule set demonstrated that universal rules were presented with the intention to baance the game. Games workshop seems to test rules for one game, to check the effects in game to get a good idea of what they would be like for the other.
Now again, my personal opinion is that fantasy is a much more balanced game, now some argue that because of magic has unbalanced the game..so why did Dwarves win Throne of skulls? They have no casters, and dont rely on magic at all..is this because the older players miss the days where they could herohammer their opponent into submission? Or because they refuse to adjust their armies to the new edition?
Now i understand that 40k players that are only sci fi fans only live for the futuristic combat it provides, and arent fans of the swords and shields aspect of play, presented in fantasy, and vice versa. but why completely disregard fantasy as a lesser game? When clearly there is more internal balance, and a much wider array of armies that win tournaments, and the game itself is easier to balance with composition and specific bans. Maybe its the fact that 40k is easier to build, and much quicker to paint an army? Or is it just a complete misunderstanding of fantasy, or vice versa that persuades a player from trying it out or playing it?

Let me throw in, down here we have a slightly larger 40k following, and the last two tournaments there were 25 40k players, and yesterday there were18 fantasy players..but lets look further into this, 40k with its powercreep, had 8 grey knight players, and 6 imperial guard players.with the rest of the field their were multiple variants of space wolves, blood angels , and vanilla space marines, with 1 tyranid player, and 1 ork player..in 3 different areas around here, it was typically the same, with a smattering of Necron builds...so little to no variation...
While the Fantasy tournament here every army in the game was present, and on 2 other occasions it was the same deal, now after some research ive seen that its the same scenario..even the oldest army book in rotation, Wood Elves, was present, multiples of the army, and very, very competitive (reminiscent of the old Dark Eldar). Is this a bias opinion that floats around in the 40k community, that fantasy, which requires more effort, is a lesser game? i remember back home, even when was indecisive about what 40k army to play, that fantasy was frowned upon by players that never even played it, their opinions based on hearsay, and well with 7th edition, not so misguided, but is 5th edition 40k all that different?
Id like to hear some feedback, and in addition id like to hope that 6th edition 40k follows the successes of the 8th edition rules and does a better job at the internal balance of the game itself.

-pogy

[MajorSoB]

I like your observations and think you are spot on. Its funny that this weeks 40K tourney had the same army breakdown that you saw there. It was GK , BA, guard and SM love feast sprinkled with a few other random armies. No big surprise there.

I do understand what you are saying about balance as it pertains to 40K. Only a fool would argue that 40K is now balanced, although as they update each codex it is getting better because ever new codex has about the same amount of game changing special rules and expections as the latest 5th edition books. I have seen the current fantasy played and have talked with some of the players who will say that with a few exceptions ( Brettonians ) and a few broken magic items ( an Orge one I was told ) that the game does balance much nicer and offers better variety. With that being said I will raise the following point.

The reason fantasy is not that popular in these parts is because most of the players here don't seem to be looking for a balanced game but want the best army to smash around their current opponents. There are factors here that took away from fantasy popularity as well in the past but currently it all comes back to balance. 40K is much easier to pick a winner and those are the armies you see brought week in and week out to tournaments. You can play what you like but unless you are playing a top tier army you are only getting an exercise in dice rolling since the margins between competitive and non competitive in 40K are wide enough to park Oprah in. If fantasy is better balanced why would that appeal to the current 40K crowd that buys the latest army not out of coolness but because that army will offer the latest and greatest net list for tournament play? Maybe 6th edition will level the playing field but with the current mindset and the ability to find the latest bits of broken by trolling Dakka or BoLS, I doubt you will see any great change. Hopefully I am wrong but come the second week of May we will see...

[fishboy]

I think model count is a huge reason Fantasy is not as popular.

Personally I like taking 10 guys into combat and getting 30 attacks rather than taking 30 guys into a combat and getting 10....

[MajorSoB]

Model count has something to do with it but there are armies where you can take very few models like Orges and do well too. I think the balance is a bigger factor.

[grubnards]

A couple of things from someone who still plays fantasy (occassionaly)...

Fishboy, with 8th edition the second rank gets supporting attacks and if you have a hoard unit (10 models wide) then the 3rd rank gets to contribute as well. They also did away with front rank casualties not being able to strike back as the models that stepped up still get to strike so gone are the days of low dice rolling. The hoard rule has led to some people on forums saying that this is solely a ploy by GW to get you to buy more models but isn't that the appeal of fantasy, being able to field huge blocks of troops? That was the appeal to me.

As for model count, I can see that many 40k players would have an issue with that as most of them are used to 40-60 model count max armies (and many don't even both to paint those). As Doug pointed out, Ogre Kingdoms is about the only army in fantasy that can get away with low model count and still be competitive. For example my Orc and Goblin army currently has at least 175 models.

Another thing that was brought up about 40k is net lists. From what I see there are very few net lists out there for Fantasy as each army has a good amount of unit types for each section. There are always going to be the uber units and units that no one will touch but again, looking through the army lists and battle reps for fantasy you generally see a variety.

However, with that being said, my general observations in the last couple of tourney's I attended is that most of the players still have the same mentality that Doug mentioned about 40k, the making and taking the power build army books. I think the last event I attended at MG had like 10 players (some from out of town) and the breakdown came down to something like 3 High Elves, 2 Lizardmen, 2 WoC, 1 Beastman and 1 or 2 Skaven. So out of 14 armies available only 5 were present and 3 out of the 5 are considered top tier books. However, Simcon is a nice change as it had a more relaxed feel and a more variety of armies present (even though I got pounded).

With all that being said, I do enjoy playing fantasy and since I only get to play a couple times a year, I go with the attitude of bringing a fun list and spending the day moving blocks of toy figures and rolling dice, without much care if I win or lose. Hopefully I will be able to attend crossroads this year as I have never attended a large Fantasy tourney.

[pogysnacks]

Model count is definately a big issue and that i agree, my skaven army consists of 377 models, but i feel its much more rewarding painting rank and file, because they look astounding on the table top if done well.
Another reason would be how players will "hear" how unbalanced fantasy is and immediately discredit it..usually they hear it from a good 40k player, and assume his word is law, when in reality its probably because that 40k player is lost when he plays fantasy..
No offense some of the 40k guys give up on fantasy because it requires more effort than point and shoot..give it a chance its not so painful.
Then theres rumors of how obscenely broken magic is...first of all there are tons of super spells, but there arent many guarantees they'll work, mages can only throw 6 die at any one spell (minus dark elves), and only 2d6 powerdie to a maximum of 12 (including extras generated from abilities, spells, or items) can be generated while the highest of the two die represents dispel die generated.
And to the spells themselves..yea purple sun is crazy, but it wont affect armies equally, its initiative based, all of my armies have troops with 5+ initiative, minus skave who have several different scores per unit..so these super spells in the rulebook dont effect all equally...i think apart of me is just praying ill be able to play some fantasy when i come home

[grubnards]

Pogy,

Give me a shout on the forums when you get back in town and I will gladly drag "da ead' bashas" out for a match with you. I can easily field up to 3000 pts of Orcs n Goblins and like I said in my previous post, I'm always looking for some fun, laid back games.

I agree with your assessment of the magic phase, the way power dice/dispel dice are generated makes it a more even playing field when it comes to armies that may not have a lot of spell casters. I generally like to run 1 Orc Shaman and 1 Night Goblin Shaman or so in my lists. The spells of da little wagh are fun to use.

- Kevin

[MajorSoB]

Jeremy,

While I dont normally drag out my fantasy armies, and cannot say I am well versed on the rules either, I will be happy to play you anytime you want when you get home. If your patient and show me the new rules again maybe then maybe I will learn how fun fantasy can be. Let me know when you get home.

[pogysnacks]

Sounds good, i got fully painted Dark Elves, and halfway done skaven...although ive painted more models in my skaven army than i have in my DElves..im still only halfway done haha

[Ranger Dude]

I'll throw my hat in to the willing to play category. My Gobbos can always use more abuse to fuel their anger.

[pogysnacks]

when i get back, il be around for a few weeks, ill more than likely bring skaven so that would be a hilarious matchup haha

[pogysnacks]

Mar 12, 2012 20:03:05 GMT -5 @grubnards said:

Pogy,

Give me a shout on the forums when you get back in town and I will gladly drag "da ead' bashas" out for a match with you. I can easily field up to 3000 pts of Orcs n Goblins and like I said in my previous post, I'm always looking for some fun, laid back games.

I agree with your assessment of the magic phase, the way power dice/dispel dice are generated makes it a more even playing field when it comes to armies that may not have a lot of spell casters. I generally like to run 1 Orc Shaman and 1 Night Goblin Shaman or so in my lists. The spells of da little wagh are fun to use.

- Kevin

Ill definately give you a shout, i can field 3k in either skaven or dark elves, but ill more than likely bring skaven because its amusing playing an army that is just as, if not more, dangerous to itself as it is the opponent, of course theyre not all painted yet, closing in on 400 models pretty fast, but fun laid back game would probably mean running an abomb, doomwheel, a ton of slaves and a bunch of weapons teams..which seem to blow up in my face just as much as they hurt my opponent ..
I had a game last week that saw my grey seer blow himself up casting the dreaded 13th, along with more than 25% of the clanrat unit he was in leading to them fleeing along with 2 blocks of slaves..followingthat i had a warp lightning cannon misfire and send a lightning shot through my stormvermin and they managed to sit still, but he managed to mortar my fleeing units to the point where i couldn't rally lol..needless to say we played another game..and i enjoyed that game lol

[norton]

I've played the occasional game of fantasy... and before that I used to be a semi-respected (not by these not a very nice persons of course ) 40k player.

I'd be more then willing to show you and Doug the basics of fantasy some time. (or show you how to beat doug at malifaux!)

[fishboy]

Ranger is the one that gives me fits at Malifaux. He always has the perfect army heheh.

[pogysnacks]

Mar 14, 2012 8:56:05 GMT -5 norton said:

I've played the occasional game of fantasy... and before that I used to be a semi-respected (not by these not a very nice persons of course ) 40k player.

I'd be more then willing to show you and Doug the basics of fantasy some time. (or show you how to beat doug at malifaux!)

Humble...Norton arent you considered one of the best in the united states lol