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Post by bromento on Jun 14, 2012 14:46:42 GMT -5
Wow... 200+ views already on this post. Of course games were more fun years ago, everything was always "more fun" in retrospect but as we age and our tastes and priorites become more refined, what we were able to put up with or how we handled situations with other people back then changes with age and experience. This hobby, like any other, goes through the same cycles. Let's see, in the past 30 odd years I have collected comics, did watercolor/oil paintings, did photography, participated in re-enactments, fishing, RPG/Tabletop gaming, etc... and in just about all cases, cost, life, and/or the disappation of the "fun factor" led to me to moving on to other ventures. It's the way we are all wired. I agree to an extent Kevin. People change, grow old, get new hobbies. Nostalgia certainly paints things in a different light and I have learned this with other things as well. All that is undeniable. What is also undeniable is that the dynamic of the game has clearly changed. And I think a good amount of people see that and aren't pleased with the direction it's going. But like you said, people move on and new people come along.
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Post by fishboy on Jun 14, 2012 16:51:35 GMT -5
Guys, I really appreciate the honesty in this post as well as the civility. It looks like the start time is fine the way it is and people want fewer diversified tournies. I think Travis tries to set up different events to give everyone a chance or meet the flavor they like. So to sum it up: 1). Start time seems to be a non issue....guess I just have to keep getting up early 2). Varied events need to be established well ahead of time with few to no adjustments for consistency 3). Even the events that are paint centered (my favorite ones) we should have a best general award so unpainted or poorly painted armies have a chance to win something. 4). Everyone just get along 5). 6th will help. I know Travis goes out of his way to keep us happy and I want to try and grow the scene. When he is successful we have a place to play.
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Iron Warrior
Moderator
The Iron
Iron Within! Iron Without!
Posts: 2,573
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Post by Iron Warrior on Jun 15, 2012 0:08:26 GMT -5
Doug hit the nail on the head. Almost every reason he posted is a reason you dont see me around anymore, be that a blessing or curse. Thumbs up from me Doug. You get my vote. Doug for Emporer...or Warmaster!?
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pogysnacks
Sergeant
Jeremy Plisk ..um Orks>everything else
Posts: 239
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Post by pogysnacks on Jun 15, 2012 9:51:10 GMT -5
I agree with Doug on all points, i dont know a handful that have joined into this new group of gamers, but you guys constantly flame doug for the things he says, but in his defense do any of you that grill him have the balls to admit that in a lot of those cases maybe youre deserving? I came in barely into 2nd ed when i was a kid, than played tail end of 4th and 5th, and i remember playing fun games like Chris mentioned on saturdays against Nortons random Blue Bloods, Chris's Orks with pretty much 1 of every unit, Dougs Chaos, Weis when he had orange all foot marines, or Ben's crimson fists... Find a way to be new player friendly, advertise a league for new players, low points for them to learn the game, with a few guy sshowing them how, maybe set aside a day to show them painting isnt so bad. maybe start building Armies not lists? People get bored playing against the same nuts all the time...(yes you space marine players, i dont care what color theyre painted, theyre still marines) Also Doug for Warmaster, vote number 2
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Post by lordnurgle on Jun 17, 2012 20:49:49 GMT -5
I guess i'll jump into this abit with a stream of concience post. I've been busy last couple months with family obligations and could not attend. (think I made like 15+ in a row before that).
1) I see people stop coming(BTW wheres patrick?), but barely ever any new people. I don't even know how a person off the street gets into GW nowadays. It was great back in the days when GW had stores in all the WNY large cities, pumping out new gamers from people that walked into their stores in the mall. I used to work at the Buffalo store ('98-'99) and the goal was to get new players then send them off to 3rd party retailers after they became vets. There is no system like that now. Its really evident in Buffalo, where there is horrible support from independent retailers. I feel like the hobby will be dead in Buffalo in 5 years without GW coming back to Buffalo. BTW when GW was around there was 5 stores that really supported GW in Buffalo, after GW closed, the independent retailers then left, we got 1 and 1/2 now.
2) I miss the old GT's. You play like 7 games over 2 days and get drunk at a sponsored pub quiz on night #1. great fun. Thats what brings people to the big tourneys like adepticon each year. I have to give it to travis, he has the best store ive ever been to outside of a battle bunker.
3) sure netlists suck, so do some of the people that play them. If I get told my army had no chance againgst your list, that looks like every other list like that (ex. SW long fang/rhino rush) I think I'll lose it. I fought hard, my army fought hard and died bravely. don't trivilise those brave men that went to their death by saying I had no chance, just say good game man.
4) If someone sits and complains about an armys new rules being rideiclous, but then has that army 3 months later. They should get a permamnent minus at tourneys for the life of that army. Sure Grey knights can be crazy and everyone plays them. Thats why i sold an army that Ive had since Demon hunters codex first hit the scene. Also If you complain about lists, but dont even have a name for your space marine chapter, their just "purple marines", you need to get into the hobby a bit more and are looking at this as too much of only a game.
5) do something different. If mech is huge, do a total foot army. maybe its time for that sweet army idea from a black library book. You make a sweet army, the dice gods will reward that.
6) rules lawyering is getting ridiculous, the best thing to point too for that is thunderwolves. seing space marine on a horse/something of simialr size on a calvary base has always been infuriating. hey look, you were wrong, like everyone with common sense told you. square bases are wrong! If the only time youve ever read the fluff was to find where it says canis wolfborn rides a huge thunder wolf, you need to read more. If your army doesnt look like any army list in any codex or white dwarf, maybe your going too far to an extreme.
and a bit of advice from someone that started playing with 4th edition fantasy and 2nd edition 40k. Dont sell of an army because it looks like the new rules screw you. It will be awesome the next edition, or even a year later when people better understand how the rules can be used. Just because BOLS starts telling everyone what are the best lists, that DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE. that also doesnt mean you have to play those list. One of the most consistent players ive seen is Craig from Beef and wing with his chaos army, and that book is the worst thing ever since.. WD blood angels, DH, old DE, WH, 3rd edition (fill in the blank) they all got better. remember if they are going to raise the power off all codexs, they have to do it one release at a time. that takes a while
Keep that army, so that when it gets a new codex in 1-2 years all you have to do is buy the new models to have a big army. I have over 7,000 points each of blood angels and eldar and the preherasy world eaters are getting up there too.
BTW I like the idea of giving an "award" to the most rediculous army each month.
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Post by travis on Jun 18, 2012 7:10:10 GMT -5
I just saw this thread and wanted to chime in with my perspective. I apologize that I haven't read all that is written. I will try to be brief and then post again with comments directed at what has already been said later. Here in no particular order are the reasons I feel tourneys attendance is down.
1. 6th edition is looming. Attendance to every type of event we host is always down before a new edition comes out. Magic, Warhammer, Dungeons and Dragons. Some games just die in a store dude to an edition change. Warmachine died in my store waiting for the new edition. I realize some people still play at Jeff's but by in large it doesn't have the same numbers we got in it's prime.
2. Price point - GW has an enormous barrier to entry. They haven't come out with a smaller scaled down version of their games so that people can get in for cheap and then buy as they go. If they brought make Mordheim/Necromunda and made the gangs you bought for the game boxes that you buy for the larger games they could get whole new audience into the lager game. The proof of that alone can be shown in Space Hulk sales.
3. Recruiting - This falls mostly on me. I don't do a good enough job running events to get NEW player's in the door. More paint and takes and demo/starter games should be run. Maybe a new guy night once a month. I know I haven't introduced the game to any of my friends lately. Have you?
4. Personalities - I used to look at the historical game crowd and think "I don't understand why they don't get along, don't they realize their numbers are getting smaller and smaller by the day". Guess what, your now the historical gamer. The crowd is much older that plays 40k now then it used to be. When teenagers complained about each other that was expected. But grown men, with jobs and families, squabbling over a game to the point that they don't want to play with each other. Some of it's ego, some of it's pride most of it is some form of immaturity. It's a game, just because you don't agree with how someone else plays the game doesn't mean they suck as a human. If you have had a disagreement with someone about something, whether your right or wrong you played a part in it. Clean up your side of the street and at least make an attempt to come out with a better understanding of the other person. Bottom line grow up and stop talking nuts about each other.
5 - Burn Out - A good amount of our locals are going to more big tourneys they way that it used to be back in the day. I think this is awesome. As long as your carrying yourself properly at the event it does well to have our area player's fill seats nationally and internationally. It does a bit of taxing to. The wife, the wallet, your friends and your mind. The league was a great success, due for the most part to Ben's hard work and the dedication of the player's. It was a ton of fun and something we will definitely be doing next year.
6 - Multiple stores running events - There are events all over the place. Some people look at each store as the only place they want to be or will ever be. Again this is pretty silly. Non of the stores locally are corporate run. Every one of us are just trying to keep the doors open. Please support all stores and their events. If you haven't gone to a store's event and it's been a while then go back. If the event sucks again ask the person running the event or the store owner if you could run an event. If they say yes, here's the kicker, actually run an event. If events suck and you can you can do better, step up to the plate and run one. Anyone that comes up with a cool event and wants to run it can use my place space. Obviously some events take precedent but I can get you on the calendar I promise.
The bottom line here is that we can talk about all the reasons event attendance is down. You can complain about this and that hoping someone else will step in a make it better. Here's an idea that not many of us do. Complain about something and then actually go about making it better. The worse thing you can do is nothing. If you don't like something and instead of facing it and making it better you just leave your also part of the problem. Get your entertainment where ever you like. If your a hardcore, dedicated fan of the hobby and you have allowed certain things to chase you out of it and now your not doing anything I'm sorry that you have all that money sitting in a closet collecting dust. If not part of the solution, your part of the problem. Yeah I know, if brevity was on my personal stat line I would have a 1. I like all the guys that come in and play. I will continue to have a space to play if you guys don't kill each other over things that are less important then having fun.
Thanks for your support.
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Post by hyv3mynd on Jun 18, 2012 8:11:02 GMT -5
Thanks for posting your thoughts Travis. This was my favorite comment. If you don't like something and instead of facing it and making it better you just leave your also part of the problem.
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Post by fishboy on Jun 18, 2012 8:26:28 GMT -5
I think I have voluntered for this before and will be happy to volunteer again. Last time nothing really came of it but with 6th maybe its time to try again. If you want help with paint and demo days I will be happy to try and help. As an old outrider and an old Komando for GW I have a lot of experience in this.
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Post by ccourtney on Jun 18, 2012 9:34:58 GMT -5
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Post by fishboy on Jun 18, 2012 12:54:51 GMT -5
Chris those look really cool!! I am a trophy sleeper and may step up my game to get one of the skulls heheh.
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Post by hyv3mynd on Jun 18, 2012 13:00:25 GMT -5
I'd love to earn some purity seals for my bag too.
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Post by netter on Jun 19, 2012 15:45:16 GMT -5
Complete out of towner (out of country-er ??). My thoughts from the outside looking in:
"1). The last 2 events had unusual rules for Comp and this may have kept some people away."
I like comp, for the most part. If the comp is heavy duty with tons of mousey restrictions then I might be put off. Usually, I roll with it if I half expect to enjoy the event on the whole. Unlike some players, and this is not casting judgement, I'm also fine with a non-comped event, even if I know that I will be facing overpowered lists. In short, you are probably better off with mild comp than a totally open event; you'll never make everyone happy.
"2). We are posting the start time as 9am. Should we start later and stay later?"
What? A tournament is essentially a days commitment. If players can't crawl in by 9am then they are clearly not interested enough. Wrapping up too late, on the other hand, could put off people travelling from a ways out. If you add to this the potential for events to run late (I always factor this in) then that might be a bigger issue.
"3). 6th is coming out soon and people have just lost interest until the new rules set comes out."
I don't get this either. Unless the core group of players in the area are actually tired, burnt out or bored with the current edition then what difference does it make? I always enjoy pushing around toy soldiers unless the rules are really bad.
I can't comment on any of the politics between players/groups of players in the area, but I hope that things settle out amicably. Gamers are some of the best people out there and a big reason why I like the hobby so much.
netter
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Post by Ranger Dude on Jun 21, 2012 15:34:52 GMT -5
As I am one of the old regulars who has dropped out, I suppose I should put in some feedback. Truth be told though, most of what I would say has been said.
I'm tired of paying an arm an a leg for new stuff.
I'm tired of getting stomped at tournaments because I don't bring the top codex or net-list. That's not to say many people do it. But it seems to me that I always do well enough in a tournament to get paired off against somebody like this at some point, and getting crushed. One game can ruin a weekend, both in standings and in enjoyment. I try to not let it get me down, but truth is that over the years, it's gotten old.
It used to be that you would show up at a tournament, or even open play, and find many people with nicely painted armies, and have a good time. Now, you show up, and if you are lucky you will face a nicely painted army. I can't remember when I last came to the shop to see the majority of the players playing painted armies.
I've sunk a lot of time and money into this game over the years. I till am sinking time since I am still painting my armies (sometimes), but I will not be sinking much in the way of money. I will play the occasional game against friends who I know share a common viewpoint on the game with me. I might even go to the occasional tournament. But, like Chris and Mike, I am likely selling a bunch of my stuff, keeping just the stuff I really care about, and moving on. I am one of those who has moved to Malifaux, and as things stand right now, I'll choose Malifaux over GW any day. Since my weekends in the summer are full of other things, not least of which being work, I have to choose carefully what gaming events I go to. Malifaux trumps GW, so I go to Malifaux events and the GW events are left out of my schedule.
I'm not trying to be negative, but the fact of the matter is that I have become quite jaded regarding GW and the way the game is these days. As several other posts have shown, I am not the only one. And while I know things change, and I don't expect to have the "old days" back, there are elements from that time that need to be brought back to fix the present. Unfortunately, those things are not really "fixable".
People need to have fun again. Not be caught up in the drive to win. People need to care about the hobby side of things again, not field primed or unpainted armies just because it's full of the newest Awesomesauce. People need to care about their fellow players again, not be caught up in their own enjoyment. The hobby needs to be affordable again, not requiring a new mortgage to get an army.
In some ways, I think the game needs to fail to be reborn. I am constantly hoping this is not the way it has to be, but that seems to be the way it's heading. In time, the player base will diminish to those who really do care, and then they can rebuild it with their values as a central force. The game will grow again. Right now, there is a large clash in values.
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Post by lordnurgle on Jun 21, 2012 22:04:41 GMT -5
I just want to comment on the cost. I think that needs to be addressed. This hobby is cheaper now than when i started ('95). back then i played chaos. i made a squad of beastmen with 2 weapons. it cost me $150 for 30. I am finishing up a 2,000 point ogre army that has cost me about $350. Thats what i paid for nintendo Wii the day it came out with and extra controler and the new zelda game. btw that night i also bought 2 more controllers, 3 nunchuks and madden football. which is definetly more than what i'll have paid for the ogres by the end of next year.
Alot of people started in the age of plastic units. If you started then, it has increased in price. heck you should have seen how much bigger armies got when 3rd edition hit. I have decided im done getting rid of armies. I have chosen my core armies and will expand on each the rest of my life(as yes, btw i made a gamers will and know where all of my armies are going). I have watched some of my friends have a painted army, start a new one, sell the old one while the 2nd is half painted and complain they don't have a painted army.
How do we recruit? that should be the boards biggest concern. I plan on playing this game the rest of my life and i constantly worry that
BTW weve had a discussion at beef and wing about the gamers edition.most have decided that we dont need the munitorium dice (just six sided dice with pics) and arent gonna use the satchel, so we need to order through travis. I am PM you our order tonight if you could please fill it.
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