Increasing Tourny Turn out

[fishboy]

We only had 7 show up for the recent tourny and I think for the random doubles we had 10. FOB had 19 which is a decent turn out but lower than I would expect.

Ben, myself, and several others at the event this weekend were discussing why we thought attendence was so far down and what we can do to increase it. Here were some of the things we think may have been issues but let us all know so we can grow attendence again.

1). The last 2 events had unusual rules for Comp and this may have kept some people away.
2). We are posting the start time as 9am. Should we start later and stay later?
3). 6th is coming out soon and people have just lost interest until the new rules set comes out.

Let us know what is keeping you away so we can max out our events again!!

[professor]

I think 1 and 3 are the biggest obstacles when it comes to tournament turn out. It is also a busy time of year with high school finishing, college finishing and a lot of nice days with family engagements.

Add in graduation parties and other peripheral events, with 6th looming on the horizon and I think wait and see is a good idea. I would actually like an earlier start time with a 30 minute lunch break. It makes it easier for me to get out if I can be on the way home around 5:00 or so.

[hyv3mynd]

You'll probably have to hear from the "regulars" who haven't been attending.

#1 is important to note. Last year, ToS had no comp scoring and this year it did. I believe both fell on the 2nd Saturday of June so based on those facts alone I'd say it's the format. Personally, I plan my army lists about 4 weeks in advance so I did so this month. I bought and began painting new models only to find out 9 days later (3 weeks before the event) that comp was introduced and my list would be -7. It didn't keep me home but maybe it did for others. Some people may not want to be penalized, especially if they only have one army with limited models to pull from.

Last year, the "random partner" team event was a lock-in, not a 2nd Sat event. Wacky formats like that are better suited for "fun" lock-in events whereas the 2nd Sat events may be better suited to more standard formats with less random factors.

I missed January and February, but from March through June, the non-comp events have had the highest participation.

Also worth noting that last year, Lee (?) and Travis were running events. This year, Ben and Smitty (and Joe) have so they haven't been able to participate outside of being ringer.

There's also a lot of personal stuff that's changed. Erich, Chris (sinistermind), and I have new babies. Some of the more hardcore gamers are traveling to Adepticon, Wargamescon, ATC, etc and may have to give up local events to prepare or to negotiate with wives.

I think we've also lost 2-3 regulars to Malifaux since that league/group started up.

Here's a quote that has stuck with me also:

Apr 5, 2012 23:09:40 GMT -5 sinistermind said:

I am considering attending since paint is only 15% because progress on the ghost grey knights has been slow due to life

There's a decent amount of gamers who don't have fully painted armies and will choose to stay home over "not having a chance" because their stuff isn't fully painted. Maybe separating the painting awards from the overall placing track would encourage more participation. Again, this is from my experience only with 3 of the 4 past monthly events scoring painting VERY heavily (March painting league final, April FoB, and June ToS).

All of this is meant to be constructive and not to be taken as complaining.

[robm]

#3 for me, little burned out atm and waiting for 6th to hopefully shake things up and see where my armies stand.

Oh, and I like the keeping painting separate, for obvious reasons

[MajorSoB]

Alright Joe, remember you asked for it! ;D

My honest opinion is as follows, that there are a multitude of reasons for the decline of 40K both locally and overall. Some of these can be helped locally while some of them cannot. Here is what I see...

I started playing 40K at the start of 4th edition. My son and I both purchased our armies late in 3rd edition, knowing that in a few short months that the new rules would come out. This gave us both a chance to assemble and paint our armies. When 4th edition came out several experienced players (Rob Aufar more manly than me and Chris Shaffer) took time to show but my son and I the rules and got us started in the game. As I remember GW did a better job supporting the hobby with things like GT and Games Days, GW forums, bitz orders and the infamous Bitz Wagon, Summer events like Medusa V, the Outrider program, etc. 4th edition was more stagnant with most armies being stand and shoot but I also recall that nearly every army could compete. There were very few uber OTT armies back then, and on any given sunday your list could be your opponent's list. White Dwarf ran articles, Chapter Approved, Q&A with Dirty Steve, and people could afford the hobby due to lower prices and a better economy. Near the end of the edition GW released Apocalypse with some whacky rules so you could play all you armies at once in a huge battle. Along with this GW offered some deals on models if you bought in quantity like the Imperial Tank Company of 10 Russes, The Space Marine Megaforce ( how is yours coming Dave?), the Tide of Spawn, etc that gave gamers a break on prices. Things seemed pretty good then 5th edition was released. This edition offered better mobility and survivability with vehicles as well as some new set ups and changes in what would count as scoring, making troops the only unit that could capture and objective. For a while this was fun, but like all things some bad started to creep out of the good. GW began to cut costs with several moves that included but were not limited to the closing of the GW stores in western NY, the discontinuation of bitz, changes in White Dwarf, increase in cost of models and supplies, the elimination of GW GTs, metal models swept aside for Finecast, and the building of the GW wall of secrecy where new releases and projects became guarded information. GW began telling customers what they wanted rather than being responsive to the people who played its games. And most importantly, in my opinion, the internet took on life of its own and made information available in ways never thought of before. Information about the game but more importantly about winning became readily available and the focus shifted from fun to winning. GW no longer determined how GT would be run and it was left to the players many of whom cared only about winning and they began to structure their tournaments and their interpretation of the rules to accomplish just that. 5th edition released new codices, however they seemed to be on a different power level than the previous ones were. The way that I see it now ( and the empirical data from Adepticon will show many others believe this too ) is that there are a handful of armies that are heads and shoulders above their competition, and if winning is your goal, you need to be playing these armies. It wasn't a coincidence that Grey Knights were so disproportionately represented. So now we are on the cusp of 6th edition, and we all are placing our hopes that new life will get breathed back into the game with all the fixes that will be contained in this magical tome. On the 23rd we will all know if this is the case, or if we all have closets filled with some high priced painted plastic that is now almost worthless.

So we haven't had the turn out we would like at the last few events? Here is how I see it:

1) GW has done nothing to attract new players. $100 is alot for the "starter set" where you need to spend at least another $300 or more to field an army.

2) The competition has grown. 40K and Fantasy are still good games but there are many others out there that are cheaper and have better written rules.

3) Costs over the past several years have risen quicker in regards to 40K and Fantasy than in other games like Magic or Yu-Gi-Oh. You can still buy a started deck for $10-20 and packs around $3.50. What are land raiders now $80? Its not hard to see why many younger players have not made the jump to GW. Think about it, in a few weeks GW is asking us I'm guessing $75 to keep playing their game. Other companies give their rules away for free...just saying!

Now a few things locally...

4) When was the last time any veteran player around here made an effort to talk with a new player? The scene here is run like a "good old boys club". Has anyone here taken the time to invite some of the few newer players to come to an event? Have you sat down and played them in a fun, friendly game? What is being done to grow the 40K community as a whole? Give me, or any other new player a reason why they might stop by a local event? What is in it for them?

On to the tournaments...

5) Comp. What a joke. Unusual to say the least, f-ing stupid would be a more appropriate characterization. Comp should be used to help create diversity and handicap stronger armies against weaker ones. Unfortunately that never has been the case here and with the current lack of knowledge floating around here it never will be. Penalizing a Sisters army that has no choice in its troops slot at both your GT and last weeks event is really the only example I need to put forth. You have consistently tailored "comp" to your own liking, not based on any GW fluff or any rules, certainly not balance, but what you like to see played, and what you think should be played.

6) Events and their rules. Here is how a Millennium event is run. The rules are posted, discussion ensues where some people complain that it isn't fair to them so that person depending on who he is gets things changed to their liking while others are ignored. Scoring is never determined, missions are nebulous, maybe there is painting, maybe not, most missions tend to be Adepticon/NOVA style. When the event occurs, it is usually feels rushed like the organizers have better places to be, and at the end the winners are read off and prizes awards. Never is a breakdown of scoring made available or posted. Why? Transparency would be nice since mathematical errors occur. The feeling however is that its not important enough to post results or even a clear breakdown in scoring and how the numbers are determined. FYI check your GT scoring. Your numbers breakdown do not add up to the total on your web page. I would have thought you would have taken better care after last years scoring problems.

7) Fun. Have you had fun playing 40K recently? Are your tournaments fun? When you show up are you there to have fun or just to win? You tell me...

8) Fairness?

and lastly...

9) The current group of gamers. This may be the biggest reason that your tournaments have fallen off. The core group of players while they might think they are funny and good natured are not. I have pulled a knife out of my back from many of you, be it words I have had relayed to me by others, ones I have read about myself or others on your hidden Facebook page, conversations I have had with current and former players that refuse to go to your tournaments, etc. It's OK to have fun, it's OK to pick on our friends when its good natured, but when you cross the line and say downright mean things about others behind their back, sooner or later you will be exposed for what you have said. I would at least have respect for you if you said your hateful crap about me and others openly, but when you do it in the cloaked and cowardly way that you do it reveals the true nature of your character or lack of one. If you are unsure what I am talking about and want names and details I would be more than happy to provide them.

Understand I have no problem finding people to play with or people to hang out with either. 40K is just a game and only serves as an excuse to get together with people I enjoy. The reason for the low turn out is simple, it is no longer enjoyable. Yes I understand many have work and family commitments, school, warm weather, life in general, etc but when something is important we make time for it. Make 40K fun again and maybe you might see some people return. Here is some ideas:

1) Have a tournament where you don't keep score. Maybe you could bring in some of your old models and place them on a table. If you win maybe you get a "prize" from that table?

2) Stop playing your crappy overpowered lists and play something fun. Have players vote on the worst list there ( like all walking Tau, etc ) and maybe they get a prize?

3) Sit down and play a game with a new player. I was just there saturday and saw a few kids playing some nice Necron armies. I looked at their models and gave the one kid a compliment on some electric patterns he freehanded on his shields. He talked with me and told me how much fun he had painting them.

THIS is why we all started playing, so that we could play with cool models and have fun with our friends. We didn't know what was good or what was bad, we only cared about stupid stuff happening and having a laugh or two. Is this why we played, not so we could crunch numbers, figure out what the most points efficient list were, focus on what rules to exploit and build the deadliest army around. Ask yourself, is it a fun day if I lose every game I play?

In closing, I had a conversation last week when playing Malifaux ( Yes Trevor and Aaron you read that right, and no it wasn't an Excel sheet ). I asked what he thought 6th edition would be like and what rumors might be true. Would it be a better game? His answer, " I don't care because I would still have to play with the same 'idiots' that currently play 40K." This above all is why you had 7 people show up last week.

[nutter]

Ughh this didn't post last night, stupid basketball.

Joe, we talked, and Aaron you right, so real quick break down since i'm on break.

The two reason that don't really need to be talked about is Life and 6th ed coming down the tube, there self explainable.

We can see about changing the start times but I don't see that changing turn out, I mean for the most part we say 9 and start at 10, would a hour change that? Prob not, Two hours? maybe, but now were not getting down till 7-8. also when were winding down you have other groups coming in i.e. magic and other gamers

Comp: Love it hate it no one has a idea. people want it people don't. so its all over the place. And I have no problem taking the blame for it since i'm the one doing it. What I've done over the last couple of tourneys is I've tried 3 different ways of doing comp, player judge, judge judged and then this last one, which I didn't like much my self but I still needed to see how it would play out was "rules judged"

They all have there own "Flavor" and each one is different, I'm not a fan of player judged since 1) its paper work for players, 2) groups can (Doesn't mean they do) take advantage of it. Judge judged has players female doging about Bias and rules Judged, messes with old army's and new ones. Yeah not everyone is going to like it but welcome to life...

So like I said that's a quick break down, i'm pretty sure GW wont do anything to address comp or the "new Shinny stuff" is better since they basically have decided to just be a model company rather than a game company. So yes Be prepared to dark angles be over the top, then Chaos then what ever is after that, that's the New GW

[norton]

Despite it being an absolutely monumental wall of text. I'm hoping some of us actually bothered to read SOB's response above. Despite his somewhat snarky tone Doug has rather hit the issue on the head.

The game itself is less fun then it used to be. Power creep has a part in this for sure... But I found the real fall of 40k was the internet. When we all started our worlds were much smaller. All we knew about the game we had learned from the 20-30 players in the area. Combo's were tried and counters were created. But once the net-list generation took off the armies were boiled down into the most stream lined forms they have today. Adepticon was the king of this mentality. 800 players, and effectively what? 5-10 distinct lists?

Playerbase. I left the fold of 40k gameplay some time ago. I've still got armies and vaguely keep up with the times but for the most part it's infrequent. I still play the stray game of 40k at times, and it's rare but the occasional 40k tourney. I feel like if I showed up on a random tuesday with an army that on of the old guard would still give me a game and we'd both have fun throughout it. Unfortunately I'm afraid I may be in the minority there. I'm not sure how many of the "non regulars" would be welcomed to the table. From my observations at millenium during the Malifaux league there definitely appears to be the "Daboyz" guys and then "everyone else" and the two groups don't interact.


6th edition. I'm hoping the chaos legions get a huge boost in power and become the new grey knights to be honest. That way I can at least hawk my armies on ebay and turn a profit In all honesty i hope they can turn 40k back into a tourney calibre game.

[professor]

Just want to elaborate a bit more on one of Doug's points - which is a good one.

Organization and communication really help make these events. Also, while comp has a place in events - it does create strictures on players that they may have difficulty working around. Especially if it is not expressed well in advance. I think key aspects for events are...

1 - Move discussion about tournament rules to a different thread than the announcement. Make the announcement once it has been finalized.

2 - Succinctly state the missions to be used and how the scoring will work. Post the scores (or write them on a small white board?)

3 - Lock these parameters in, and provide a mechanism to earn points towards other challenges - example: Most HQ kills in a non top 3 wins $X - this gives players a bonus to play for. You could even throw out a challenge each round.

4 - More than changing times - have a posted schedule and stick to it. What gets me in trouble (and is difficult for parents) is when you think an event is going to go until 5:00 and it lasts until 7:30.

Although I am out of town, I am more than happy to assist with planning aspects of the tournaments - even ones I cannot make. Distilling the tournament write up to pdf and posting it for download is good too

[crimthaan]

Wrote a big long ramble and then said screw it and I'll break it down nice and simple...

1. 5th edition is dying...I've had my file of it. Hopefully 6th edition will shake things up and you'll start to see variations in armies fielded and HOW they are fielded.

2. Tired of dealing with rule lawyers. Forgetting how a rule works or asking a quick question if fine, everyone does it (especially me, ask CC). For people to actually get into drawn out arguments over a bloody GAME mechanic is just dumb and I'm tired of it. I've seen an insane rise in this at the store in the past year and I'd just rather avoid it...hence why I barely show up to the events anymore. I'd rather play a friendly game.

3. Tired of dumping money into the hobby. The cost of the game is becoming astronomical. I'll buy paints but that's about it from now on....buying Coutney's Guard was my last big dump into the system.

4. Tied in with #3, I simply have different interests in my life that I'd rather pursue now and put my money into. Ask any of the guys that I typically talk to anymore and they know the reason I don't show up on Tuesdays anymore is my Pekiti Tirsia Kali is the same night.

5. I'm in the process of working two jobs whiel finishing my MS degree... and trying desperately to find my own classroom....this itself has really limited my time.

6. Perhaps my more controversial issue and at this point I really don't give a d**n who I offend or not...but the toxic atmosphere that has developed over the last two or three years in the Rochester 40k scene is just too much for me anymore. I'll be the first one to admit I'm not blameless in this either. But after a lot of recent reflection in my own personal life I just don't want to deal with drama anymore in a hobby I got into for fun. I'll be trying my d**nedest to just not listen to people when they complain about this person or that and I'll be doing my d**nedest to not do it myself. It's a game that's meant to be fun and that's what I'm going to try and keep it at.

[hyv3mynd]

I've read about netlisting on the usual boards and forums but in my experience, it hasn't been present or problematic locally which is what we're discussing. Adepticon had the GK thing, but didn't they have the SW thing the year before and IG before that? That's the natural pattern of their release cycle.

If you missed the last 4 events (only ones I've attended this year), here were the #1's:

March (painting no comp) - Bromento w/ chaos daemons
April (Feast of Blades) - Courtney w/ GK - daemon hosts, crusaders, psykers, assassins, servitors, no spam
May (random teams) - Me w/ tyranids - old school warriors and carnifexes made up 85% of my army
June (1500 comp) - Warmasterprimus w/ tyranids - no sc's, no dupes

In those 4 events, I saw maybe 1-2 space wolf lists that were the closest thing to a "netlist" and I hardly think 1-2 "netlists" in 4 events is keeping anyone home. 9 oblits w/ 2 daemon princes and min/max razorspam with mephiston have been absent for a while. Maybe there's some examples of netlists being played locally (no names needed) that I've been missing?

If the internet forums and blogosphere are tainting the local gaming scene so much, would that make tyranids and daemons overpowered armies?

[skyth]

Jun 13, 2012 15:28:36 GMT -5 @crimthaan said:

6. Perhaps my more controversial issue and at this point I really don't give a d**n who I offend or not...but the toxic atmosphere that has developed over the last two or three years in the Rochester 40k scene is just too much for me anymore. I'll be the first one to admit I'm not blameless in this either.

And the biggest reason I don't play 40k is right there. Not that I have time to play any more either.

[sinistermind]

I know my 40k friends and i have not made it to many tournaments this year, for them due to working saturdays for me its mostly what aaron pointed out about paint heavy scores lately,i understand and agree painted army battles look 100% more epic and that if it were(and is) important to me i would make time to paint but multiple things in my life are important and i have them prioritized.

Also the formats have been wacky,and i much prefer set team events due to the planning, list building aspect.

For me the time is good, push it later and then it becomes an issue for me.

I dont know about the next tournament(high paint haha) but ill definitely be attending the following 6th ed ones

[bromento]

Jun 12, 2012 15:38:56 GMT -5 @hyv3mynd said:

Last year, the "random partner" team event was a lock-in, not a 2nd Sat event. Wacky formats like that are better suited for "fun" lock-in events whereas the 2nd Sat events may be better suited to more standard formats with less random factors.

This started my lack of attendance. This tournament seemed a little quirky to me. Most of the tournaments of lately have been trying too hard to push the envelope of creativity. Tournaments used to be about showing up, playing some fun balanced games with the regulars and a few out of towners in hopes of winning some prize support.

Money is huge as well as life getting in the way. Full time career, new marriage and wedding photography don't allow much time for anything else.

Another huge factor is the fun aspect of it. I think it's been stated multiple times, and Doug hit the topic pretty well. I remember back in high school when 3rd edition was around I would show up as early as 11 and stay until late at night, maybe 9 or 10. We would all show up and throw down with huge 4v4 or 5v5 matches. Games would last countless hours, there were no rules lawyers and many laughs were had. This would be followed by a few hours on the computers destroying each other in counter strike.

Times have changed, I don't think it's just that I've aged and have other priorities. 5th edition along with OP codices have drastically altered the way the game is. The game has veered from a fun based game to a profit making machine, not just in the cost of things, but the constant tournaments. Instead of people showing up to play freindly team games, which IMHO have always been the most fun, people turn up with power lists to test for the next upcoming tournament.

We went from showing up on a saturday, creating a list on the spot to allow for a fun and unique game that differs every time, to showing up with a meticulously crafted list meant to trounce any and all opponents.

I'm in the same boat as Norton, I'm hoping 6th does become a hit, then I could turn a cool profit on my Chaos. The game just isn't the same.

[grubnards]

Wow... 200+ views already on this post.

Of course games were more fun years ago, everything was always "more fun" in retrospect but as we age and our tastes and priorites become more refined, what we were able to put up with or how we handled situations with other people back then changes with age and experience. This hobby, like any other, goes through the same cycles. Let's see, in the past 30 odd years I have collected comics, did watercolor/oil paintings, did photography, participated in re-enactments, fishing, RPG/Tabletop gaming, etc... and in just about all cases, cost, life, and/or the disappation of the "fun factor" led to me to moving on to other ventures. It's the way we are all wired.

Now in some cases (i.e... re-enactments), I participated in that hobby for close to 10 years and sunk well over several thousands of dollars and sacrificed family time at an age when my kids were still toddlers. I left the group with a sour attitude due to, what I then perceived, was because of "a$$ holes" in the group. But in hindsight, I realized that I formulated that excuse to get out of a hobby that I just no longer wanted to be involved with due to reasons that really had nothing to do with the people (ok, a minor few really were a$$ holes). Since then I have made amends with many of those people and stay in touch with some of them to this date.

So, if for what ever reason you feel like this hobby (or any other) is not the same anymore or that you can't get along with a certain person or two, take a break and move on or start a new system with different people. (Mailfaux, Warmachine, Mouse Trap, Solitare, etc, Travis has them all). The game will always be here in one format or another for you to come back to. Or maybe take a break from the tournament scene and just paint and/or play with your close friends out of your home or at the store on a quiet night. Leave the new or less jaded players to enjoy that sense of "cool neat models" and "epic games" while they still are able to have those "fun memories". Let them play Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Blood Angels or what ever else the "net" perceives to be "broken crap" without making them feel bad.

There is no need to create a negative environment for the existing players or potential new players in the community. Keep in mind that when new or outside people read threads like these, not only does it affect a player/community base, but also potentially impacts the livelyhood of the local store owners as well and who doesn't want to keep Travis around for years to come.

Now to answer Joe and Ben's original point, I agree with some of the others about mission types and paint requirements. While I paint all of my stuff and enjoy facing off against a fully painted army I don't want someone to not attend because of paint scores. As for missions, hopefully 6th ed will offer a wider variety of missions for standard play.

Kevin

[hyv3mynd]

Jun 14, 2012 12:41:14 GMT -5 @grubnards said:

Wow... 200+ views already on this post.

Of course games were more fun years ago, everything was always "more fun" in retrospect but as we age and our tastes and priorites become more refined, what we were able to put up with or how we handled situations with other people back then changes with age and experience. This hobby, like any other, goes through the same cycles. Let's see, in the past 30 odd years I have collected comics, did watercolor/oil paintings, did photography, participated in re-enactments, fishing, RPG/Tabletop gaming, etc... and in just about all cases, cost, life, and/or the disappation of the "fun factor" led to me to moving on to other ventures. It's the way we are all wired.

Now in some cases (i.e... re-enactments), I participated in that hobby for close to 10 years and sunk well over several thousands of dollars and sacrificed family time at an age when my kids were still toddlers. I left the group with a sour attitude due to, what I then perceived, was because of "a$$ holes" in the group. But in hindsight, I realized that I formulated that excuse to get out of a hobby that I just no longer wanted to be involved with due to reasons that really had nothing to do with the people (ok, a minor few really were a$$ holes). Since then I have made amends with many of those people and stay in touch with some of them to this date.

So, if for what ever reason you feel like this hobby (or any other) is not the same anymore or that you can't get along with a certain person or two, take a break and move on or start a new system with different people. (Mailfaux, Warmachine, Mouse Trap, Solitare, etc, Travis has them all). The game will always be here in one format or another for you to come back to. Or maybe take a break from the tournament scene and just paint and/or play with your close friends out of your home or at the store on a quiet night. Leave the new or less jaded players to enjoy that sense of "cool neat models" and "epic games" while they still are able to have those "fun memories". Let them play Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Blood Angels or what ever else the "net" perceives to be "broken crap" without making them feel bad.

There is no need to create a negative environment for the existing players or potential new players in the community. Keep in mind that when new or outside people read threads like these, not only does it affect a player/community base, but also potentially impacts the livelyhood of the local store owners as well and who doesn't want to keep Travis around for years to come.

Now to answer Joe and Ben's original point, I agree with some of the others about mission types and paint requirements. While I paint all of my stuff and enjoy facing off against a fully painted army I don't want someone to not attend because of paint scores. As for missions, hopefully 6th ed will offer a wider variety of missions for standard play.

Kevin

+1 to all of that.

Interestingly enough I count some of my 2012 games as the most fun in my experience. My games this month vs chris, last month with courtney, kevin and dean, and in April vs Shaun were some of my most memorable and enjoyable.