TO vs Player set terrain

[hyv3mynd]

That's a joke mate, about myself.

I suppose bringing levity to put a shine on a bitter thread at my own expense is against the rules too.

[sinistermind]

saw this pic on facebook and it instantly made me think of this thread

[travis]

I haven't looked at this thread since I posted my first response many posts ago.

Look players of a game are players of a game. Many things happen in life that drive us away from our social circles. From girls, to kids, to jobs, to lack of jobs, to arguments, to issues with rules, to moving, to not having enough time because of life.

I have stated many, many times anytime that someone would like to use my space for an event they are welcome to it. I also hold player meetings every January to go over issues that you have or have had with events that we are running. I would dare say that over the past two years there isn't a store in the country that has had a more diverse and consistent batch of tournaments.

Its hard to not take offense to the discussion about tournaments locally. I realize that other stores in the area run events from time to time but if your hammering on the tournament scene locally your basically hammering on my business.

We are all supposed to be grown men here, not just boys who shave. We can talk about the "Old Guard" not being in events and we can come up with excuse after excuse for why this happened. The truth of that is the "Old Guard" is just that. After the GT a few years ago Da Boyz was completely changed, forever. I am not going to get into gory details or call out names because it's not important what happened. Moving forward is important.

Certain players that used to play in events regularly stopped and did other things. But the game kept going and new player's came in and took their place. If a game keeps going and you aren't playing in it you miss evolutions. You also lose some of the skill you once had. Basically your just not at the top of your game. It happens to everyone that stops playing anything for a bit and gets back into.

I am gonna use Courtney as an example because I know he wouldn't mind me discussing this and he can take. A few years back Courtney self admitted fell in to a WOW comma, he had given up 40k to move to Azeroth and swing his E-sword, he had his first little Courtney, was working towards becoming the oldest cadet in fire fighter school and was long removed from the days of being "The only member of Da Boyz man enough to win a GT on American soil". When he started coming back to tournaments he was always talking about limiting what people can bring and trying to balance out the field. I always told him to stop being a sissy. Of course he wanted the field limited. If the field was balanced and he didn't have to worry about Net Nasty lists his skill was usually superior and he would win. I though maybe he was looking for a cash grab. Then I heard about him giving away his prize support. He hated non-comped events even though his friends preferred playing in them. What he did do, regardless of the event, is show up. Sure he would make a snarky remark about some of the grossness other people brought but he played. Not to every event but to most. He helped with lock-ins, he made trophies, he didn't care that he couldn't win the painting prize every event even if he deserved it. He showed up to events with lists he wanted to play regardless of whether it was comp or not. Occasionally he wins too. He doesn't complain about the format and then not do anything. He makes suggestions and some get used and some don't.

I don't take any offense if a player doesn't show up. But if your not showing up to an event because you don't like the format, come to me, talk to me, call me, send me an e-mail, send me a PM, a letter, a text, facebook message and you can run the next event however you like.

This is a community. While some disagreement is fine getting personal is not. We can all agree that we like gaming. You don't have to like gaming with every person that you play against. You don't have to like playing the way they do. If you want a tournament run a certain way and you would like to run it feel free to talk to Alex, Jeff or I. More then likely one of us will have the space and you can run the event the way you chose.

Stop being petty. Who gives a crap who posts the poll. If you want peoples opinion post a poll. I have never seen on here such a big deal made of a poll. Maybe Aaron is self motivated for posting the poll. It seems like a bit of a reach, but maybe. Who cares? Obviously, people had opinions on it.

If your involved in the tournament scene then your involved in the tournament scene. You know you are or you know your not. You can play the game competitively without being a competitive player. It's obvious GW doesn't want to touch tournaments. Tournaments function as a way for player's to get together and play a game competitively. We need to locally come up with a good way to do that given the new rules. I am not even saying that any or all of the ideas are hard and fast. Everyone knows that we have run a ton of different events.

In January, I will be holding our 4th player's meeting to discuss next year's event. All are welcome to attend. If you say "I am not attending because I don't think people like me so my opinion won't count" That's a cop out. Most times if people don't like you it's more do to how your carry yourself personally and the manner you take with people in general. If you have the stones to fire away on a forum then you should have the stones to do so in public.

Of all the people that have posted here and who's names have been brought up I like all of you. I miss guys like Tommy and Special and Ron and C4 and Norton and Dragon and Gabe and Chumba. Well not Chumba really. All of you guys that don't play that have played for a longtime hurt the community without your presence. Everyone of you bring something to the table that new player's can learn from. I would love to have to all back and hope that if your not playing at my place your getting to play and enjoy the game elsewhere.

The bottom line is that the game needs tournaments. If you show up to events whether you like the format or not then you will have more people that want to attend the events you like. Get involved. It's tough for people to accept criticism from people that weren't there and rightfully so. Don't just come up with problems, come up with solutions too. If your just lobbing in rounds then your not helping.

Please, please, please with a cherry on top stop axe grinding and personally attacking each other. Point and counter point stuff if fine. Sarcasm on a forum is nonsense. If your being sarcastic at least put it in italics. It's real easy to write something that is douchey and say it was sarcasm after the fact. Sarcasm mixed with truth and venom is a bad combination and not something you should do with people that you don't know well personally. I am beyond sarcastic but using it in text is pointless. No one can tell when it's real or not unless you specify. So just specify.

Hopefully we could ever have a constructed conversation that goes in one direction and helps progress rather then divide.

Have a great weekend

[MajorSoB]

Posted by Darth Diggler on Dakka, from the thread I previously linked to:

"You are telling me how to play. How naive can you be? I get together at a local tournament once a month with guys I've played with for years and others. Last year the tourney was turned over to two guys who love to travel to National tournaments. I don't travel to national tournaments. They have said they want to wait and see how this 'national rules for 6th edition' turns out and they could very well implement those rules for this tournament. Hence I will be stuck playing with your d**n house rules. Why would they do that? So they can practice for when they travel.

If you keep your house rules to yourselves, ie in California and no where else, I wouldn't have a problem. But you want to make sure that the way you play is the way everyone plays. This goes way beyond the INAT giving everyone the same interpretation of the rules. This involves major changes to the rule book that you are forcing down others throats. You might not realize you are doing it, but it's happening.

Pot meet kettle, kettle meet pot. California has a reputation for over regulation and micro managing the daily lives of their citizens. Please leave that out of this game.


And your definition of competitive is not mine. A competitive tournament is not one where every missions the same, every board has equal terrain and you try to jam in as many games as possible over a weekend. Competitive, to me, means being the best to think on your feet, react to the unexpected and come out on top. You know like a true competitive sport. They still count the win in the NFL if you beat the Packers with Aaron Rogers injured and there is no shame in winning agame because his objective blew up. A win is a win in a competitive environment and the best player mwill come out on top in the long run even with some games stacked against them."



I think some of his sentiments are thoughts that I share. Travis, your tournaments during 5th edition got caught up supporting other tournaments and became warped under 5th edition. They were not fun for many people since the game got away from the most important rules as per the main rule book, fun.

What I would like to see, not just for myself but for the local community is support for fun events, not just the hard core douchefests that 5th edition evolved in. I want to see all the rules played, player set terrain, overwatch, short edge missions, the whole experience. Maybe I will win one of the events, but I could care less as long as I have fun. I was in your store this week playing. Brian was also there too. We played next to some younger (18-21) players that were using Nids vs. Wolves. We interacted, had some pleasant conversation, and I listened to their reactions to 6th edition. As I watched it occurred to me that they were having fun. First turn the Wolf player realized he didn't have a good place for his ONE squad of long fangs so he shrugged his shoulders and walked them into a good spot. As the game progressed, he got CANIS into combat and issued a challenge, not because it was the best thing to do but because it was fun, and out of his own mouth it was the way an uber character would want to fight in the 40K universe. The Nid player used genetealers, as well as gaunts, and warriors. I gave hime a few ideas to keep his gaunts from face planting (BBs and spackle) and he thanked me! Im my side of the table I got my ass handed to me by Brian's Crons. Thanks GW, Sisters have no business fighting in 40K now, they should be in the kitchen cooking and cleaning, BUT I had fun! I will still play them, as well as some of my other armies and I am sure I will have fun.

What I am asking for is support for events that will encourage participation from everyone. I know that there is a segment that wants competitive play and I am all for that too. All I ask is that you alternate and preserve the rules intact, not start dissecting everything for one or a few people's satisfaction. This board is primarily trolled by hardcore players. Please remember that there is a whole population of 40K players out there that has no interest in the Tournament scene. If you want them to be part of the community keep this thought in mind. I am sure Travis that you are interested in selling to both players types so my somewhat humble advice would be to focus on events that cater to everyone not just tournaments and play styles that only cater to a few.

As discussed with you, I was wrong not to attend your last event and I will be there at the next. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me.

[sinistermind]

agreed travis , very well said and on that note millennium is the only store i go to, if it were closer i would attend casual game nights but an hour give or take ten minutes is just a bit much for a single game. I agree everyone who is a regular at millennium is very lucky for such a play space, merchandise and excellent monthly tournaments

@ major. Good points all around, while i disagree player set looks more cinematic, due to the nature of a game where each player is playing for fun AND to win. However i do think the game is funner with player set terrain, as long as rounds not be extended any longer

[Icemyn]

A few issues I see with your arguments Doug, just from my perspective.

Firstly, as you know I only started hanging around in December, so I can only speak of the last 6 months. In those 6 months we have had the most diverse tournaments from the most competitive tournaments to the least competitive tournaments. So if you truly believe that the hardcore players ruined 5th it must have happened prior to December. As has been stated before a hardcore competitive list hasn't won in that time either, the closest was when Kemp's Bought and paid for Wolves took second at the Feast of Blades Qualifier. Which is fine because it was a Competitive tournament feeding a competitive tournament, again he did not win. I really feel that this argument about 5th becoming Uber competitive Douchefests needs to be put to bed especially if you were not there to see it. (Evolved implies that it grew into that stage and ended there or got worse, it did not)

Also, I do not feel that the game got away from having fun. If that was true I wouldn't have gone and I think the other people that have stuck it out agree that it was still very fun. People's definition of fun of course may vary which may be your point, but then just say it was less fun for you not everyone.

I agree with your assessment that we should preserve the rules for now and in fact thats what the first tournament did, this poll was in response to that. You mention that you feel it should alternate, I again agree, but know that alternate includes going to competitive and back as well. If we decide on TO set terrain today we may change our minds tomorrow, but we may never get to know if we don't at least try it out first and see what people like. Additionally, as has been mentioned several times Player set terrain is just one of multiple methods, so either way rules preservation. yay! and we can alternate per your suggestion. double yay!

I agree that there is a whole population of gamers that has no interest in the tournament scene, but why would we worry about them in this discussion? I'm not trying to be a d*#k here at all, really not, but this Poll is about Tournaments. (Unless TO means Table Organizer then I am way off base my bad ) If these players don't care about tournaments (as you state), then as a result they don't care about how they are run. Not segregating here, I think everyone should come to the tournaments it makes for a more diverse and enjoyable experience.

Please don't take this as an attack, it's not, I'm just pointing out some issues that I see with the argument as presented. Also when talking to these players did you mention when the tournaments are being held and where they can find the information?(though right now might not be the best time for someone to start reading this forum) Right now is a pretty good time to recruit.

Just my two cents,
-Dean-

Edit: BTW Agree 100% with what Travis has said. Also agree this site needs better (read: any) moderation.

[robm]

I suggest that everyone just reads Travis's post and let this thread die.

[MajorSoB]

Dec 22, 2011 22:50:56 GMT -5 nutter said:

January-2000 Pts, will be 3 re-tooled GT missions No Comp, 85/15

February- 1000pts Team Tournament ( adeptaicon rules) I think its 75/25

March- Side board (WPL) 60/40 1350 and two 500 point list

April - Feast of Blades... See Joe Johnson a.k.a fishboy for detials

May- 1000 pts Team Tournament (random partners) 70/30

June- Throne of Skulls (See Gw) 33/33/33 1500 3 rounds

July- Welcome to 6th ed

August- welcome another 6th ed

September- welcome another another....6th ed

October- Da Boyz Gt Primer

November – Da Boyz Gt

December- Championship 50/50ish

Alright Dean, here is the proposed schedule. I see many examples above that are tournaments designed to support other tournaments or act as qualifiers. I cannot point to one event so far, with the exception of the one run this past weekend, that was run as a "standard" event using the rules that are written for this game. 2011 was run in a very similar fashion as well. This was my point, you can agree or disagree, but understand there is some basis for my opinion.

Dean, your tone and the manner in which you present yourself is in no way attacking. What I like best is that you can see another perspective and you can consider that as well. That is all I ask. It benefits Travis and the community as a whole when all perspectives are considered. Can we agree on that?

[Iron Warrior]

Travis, I agree with your post 100%

Of all the people that have posted here and who's names have been brought up I like all of you. I miss guys like Tommy and Special and Ron and C4 and Norton and Dragon and Gabe and Chumba. Well not Chumba really. All of you guys that don't play that have played for a longtime hurt the community without your presence. Everyone of you bring something to the table that new player's can learn from. I would love to have to all back and hope that if your not playing at my place your getting to play and enjoy the game elsewhere.

I agree with you. I have been speaking to my boyz about getting out and playing 6th ed. We have been getting games in and slowly the trickle back of those players are happening. I am going to try my hardest to make it out to more tournaments this edition as I have in the past and putting some smack down ((or lack there of )) on some people. Most importantly having fun. I have been toying with trying to come up with a narritive campaign going once my new chaos codex comes out. We had a warmaster title going on out there in the past editions and I think I need to claim that back from Kemp as I think he beat me last for that. Not only that but I need some revenge on Specials Iron Dragons which hopefully I will be getting this sunday!

[Icemyn]

Jul 20, 2012 16:38:05 GMT -5 MajorSoB said:

Dec 22, 2011 22:50:56 GMT -5 nutter said:

January-2000 Pts, will be 3 re-tooled GT missions No Comp, 85/15

February- 1000pts Team Tournament ( adeptaicon rules) I think its 75/25

March- Side board (WPL) 60/40 1350 and two 500 point list

April - Feast of Blades... See Joe Johnson a.k.a fishboy for detials

May- 1000 pts Team Tournament (random partners) 70/30

June- Throne of Skulls (See Gw) 33/33/33 1500 3 rounds

July- Welcome to 6th ed

August- welcome another 6th ed

September- welcome another another....6th ed

October- Da Boyz Gt Primer

November – Da Boyz Gt

December- Championship 50/50ish

Alright Dean, here is the proposed schedule. I see many examples above that are tournaments designed to support other tournaments or act as qualifiers. I cannot point to one event so far, with the exception of the one run this past weekend, that was run as a "standard" event using the rules that are written for this game. 2011 was run in a very similar fashion as well. This was my point, you can agree or disagree, but understand there is some basis for my opinion.

Dean, your tone and the manner in which you present yourself is in no way attacking. What I like best is that you can see another perspective and you can consider that as well. That is all I ask. It benefits Travis and the community as a whole when all perspectives are considered. Can we agree on that?

I think I finally figured out what you are looking for in a tournament. Something like "August - 1500 pts". No other enforced rules just the game played at a point value. If so, I agree there hasn't been a straight Rulebook tournament in that time or probably a long time before that. Maybe there should be that every once in awhile. Truthfully, that would make it easier to communicate tournaments to outsiders as well. Just hey 1500 points at millenium and nothing else to explain.

Also, Yes I think we agree.
-Dean-

[pogysnacks]

I actually like how the tone of this thread calmed down, and glad the tournaments are rulebook standard which is much better for the majority who have no interest in traveling to national tournaments less feuds and more standard tournaments may pay dividends for the community.

[Krusty (zack)]

not being one to fall victim to the great unending, pointless, smelly debate, im just going to post some ideas that me and your friendly neighborhood canadian red head thought up in regards to tournament terrain. cuz f**k the argument, we just need a solution.

1: The 50/50.
hey heres a clever idea... lets do both? the book likes to bring up this whole thing about d3 pieces in every 2 by 2 blah blah blah...
so lets start with 1 piece of unmovable terrain in each 2'x2' sector, plus 0-2 pieces placed by players after fortifications are set up.

2: The (Other) 50/50.
so yous guys wanna have papa smitty set up yer terrain, and yous guys wanna be big boys and set up terrain yourselves. well f**k you all, yer gunna get both. so 2 games are gunna be with all player set terrain, and 2 will be played with TO set terrain, for a 4 turn, semi-low points tourney.


questions, comments, concerns?
or am i gunna have to start a poll? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D( ;D)

[Horst]

Jul 22, 2012 21:01:36 GMT -5 Krusty (zack) said:

not being one to fall victim to the great unending, pointless, smelly debate, im just going to post some ideas that me and your friendly neighborhood canadian red head thought up in regards to tournament terrain. cuz f**k the argument, we just need a solution.

1: The 50/50.
hey heres a clever idea... lets do both? the book likes to bring up this whole thing about d3 pieces in every 2 by 2 blah blah blah...
so lets start with 1 piece of unmovable terrain in each 2'x2' sector, plus 0-2 pieces placed by players after fortifications are set up.

2: The (Other) 50/50.
so yous guys wanna have papa smitty set up yer terrain, and yous guys wanna be big boys and set up terrain yourselves. well f**k you all, yer gunna get both. so 2 games are gunna be with all player set terrain, and 2 will be played with TO set terrain, for a 4 turn, semi-low points tourney.


questions, comments, concerns?
or am i gunna have to start a poll? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D( ;D)

I can't speak for everyone of course, but 4 turn low point tournaments are the most surefire way to ensure I don't come I like the big games... 1500-2000 points are best IMO.

[MajorSoB]

Good solutions Zack!

Maybe we could try them both at different events? Maybe we just do fixed terrain at one event, then player set terrain at another, whatever the case I think we should be open to fun and creative ideas rather than making sweeping rules that will apply to every tournament until 7th edition.

Please no poll.

[sinistermind]

The first way sounds cool, although i also prefer higher/regular points games. Or as major stated we could just alternate tournaments between player/TO set terrain then it requires no house rules since both options are in the book... either way i'll be attending as many events as i can!