Can deep striking speeders fire?

[shaun]

An interesting post from the warmonger board has been started. The link is as follows:

p076.ezboard.com/fwarmongerboardfrm10.showMessage?topicID=2846.topic

The area in question is how far do deep striking landspeeders move?

[colonelellios]

I agree with most of those posters (the angry ones) about how GW has been dealing with FAQ issues for a while.

However, I think that speeders should count as moving their maximum when they drop. They're currently underpriced anyways, and deep-striking multi-meltas and assault cannons on cheap throwaway vehicles is just stupid. I can understand terminators being allowed to fire on arrival, but land speeders are just too good the way most people play them now (being able to shoot when they arrive).

It's interesting that the landspeeder deep-strike rule is totally unresolved, there's nothing even hinting at the designer's intent on P. 84 of the rulebook, it only mentions infantry...

Is the "screaming jets" rule for Dark Eldar also as ambiguous?

[Norton]

It does say that deepstriking landspeeders count as moving over 6 inches, if thier intent was to deny them from shooting it could have easily said "counts as moving over 12 inches"

It seems the intent is to give glancing hits only to them but still allow them to shoot.

[colonelellios]

Ah...I didn't know the exact wording from the codex.

I still think they're too good though!

If "...moving over 6"" is stated in the codex, I think the intention of allowing shooting is pretty clear, so why would they make an exception for a tournament?

[shaun]

Where does it say that deepstriking speeders move over 6 inches? I didn't see anything in the rule book about that - of course I only read under deep strike and reserves.

[colonelellios]

Yea same here Shaun I think the marine codex has a specific mention about how deep-striking speeders work.

[Sanguinary]

I would think they would act the same as DE Raiders w\ screaming jets. I will have to look up the rule in the DE codex.

If it says moves over 6" then sure they get to fire. it doesn't say moved over 12" which it would have said if they didn't want them to shoot.

[Ranger Dude]

Under Deep Strike it specifically says that models arriving via deep strike may shoot as normal though they count as moving. Where's the ambiguity in that.

[dragons3]

THEY COUNT AS MOVING, NO DISTANCE IS SPECIFIED AND THEY ARE CLASSIFIED AS FAST, THEREFORE THEY CAN FIRE ALL THEIR WEAPONS (2 ON A TORNADO) AND THAT WAS THE DESIGN INTENT. REMEMBER SPEEDERS ARE STILL ARRIVING FROM DROP SHIPS, SO, IT'S THE DROP SHIP THAT HAS ALL THE TRAVEL. PLUS WITH 24" RANGE AND ARMOUR 10 ALL AROUND, THEY'RE GONE ON THE NEXT TURN ANYWAYS "BOOM", A SHOT & HIT FROM MY LITTLE BOLTER PISTOL!
;D

[shaun]

The ambiguity is "how far do they move?" If a speeder moves over 12 (because their maximum move is 24) they can't fire any weapons. Also, if they move under 6 inches, they can fire but don't receive the "glancing only" ability.

I haven't checked the "speeder rules" in the space marine codex in regards to deep striking to see if they "clarify" the issue. Thats why I asked Norton where he obtained his earlier statement. If it is listed in the codex, then no problem. If not, then there is a big problem as nothing states how far the speeder moves.

[Ranger Dude]

But the rulebook clearly states that units arriving via deep strike may fire as normal. So the only isse is the glancing, not the shooting.

[evilerik]

uk.games-workshop.com/darkeldar/vehicle%2Dupgrades/
Screaming jets:
The vehicle is fitted with additional high-powered jet engines, which allow it to drop from the skies with a characteristic screaming wail. A vehicle fitted with Screaming Jets can Deep Strike if the scenario normally allows Deep Strike to be used. The vehicle counts as moving over 6" on the turn it arrives and troops on board may not disembark that turn.

that's it.

[jay]

What?
So if I deep strike a marine squad with a lascannon, plasma rifle, and bolters, can shoot at a target 36" away?

Or

A land speeder with assault cannons can shoot at a target 53" away?

The land speeder has no drop pod. They fall from the sky. I am not sure, but i believe it is more then 12". Besides they are hanging on for dear life.

I think the rule should be:
They can't fire any guns when the come down.

[dragons3]

SPACEMARINE CODEX, PAGE 36, LAND SPEEDER SQUADRON, LAST SENTENCE:

DEEP STRIKE: A LAND SPEEDER SQUADRON MAY DROP INTO THE ENEMY BATTLE LINES FROM HIGH ALTITUDE, PULLING UP AT THE LAST MOMENT ACCORDINGLY, THEY MAY USE DEEP STRIKE SPECIAL RULES WHERE THE MISSION BEING PLAYED ALLOWS IT.

SCREAMING JETS ARE NOT MENTIONED HERE, (IN THE SPACEMARINE CODEX) AND CAN NOT BE ASSUMED, THE ONLY REFERENCE IS TO DEEP STRIKE RULES.

RULES OF AN ATTORNEY 101, PLEASE GIVE SOURCES PERTAINING TO SPACEMARINE SPEEDERS DIRECTLY OR DEEP STRIKE RULES ONLY, ANY AMENDMENT MUST BE LINKED TO TOPIC.

[shaun]

I tend to agree with you Gabe, I feel they should be able to fire. But I am now of the stance that they should not get the glancing hit only. But then again, there is valid points to argue that the speeder shouldn't be able to shoot (if it is considered to move its maximum) because the shooting rules could override the deep-striking rules. For example - you can't fire a lascannon from a marine that deep-struck. Why - because he counts as moving. So moving is the key factor. If a speeder is considered to move over 12 inches - it can't fire.

This appears to be one of those areas with no "legitimate" answer. Although the Dark Eldar info can be used to help strengthen the case that they get all the benefits.

edit*** I just read Dragons post and he's right. Legally we can't attribute Dark Eldar wargear to Space Marine Speeders. Just as we can't legally say that the speeder moves under 6 inches, over 6 inches or over 12 inches.

edit 2*** Based on the description of speeders (per what dragon posted), it could be inferred that they move thier maximum move as they pull up at the last moment. Again, this doesn't prove anything but would leave one to believe they wouldn't be able to shoot.