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Post by deathwing on Mar 1, 2006 16:47:59 GMT -5
My understanding is that you may shoot per the deepstrike rule. I would stand that you don't get the glancing because you did not move over 6" on the table reguardless of how one may imagine a landspeeder deep strikes. The rule for skimmers says over 6". get the glancing. Deepstriking landspeeders don't move over 6" ON the table hence don't get the glancing benefit.
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Post by Catachan Colonel on Mar 1, 2006 17:06:19 GMT -5
time to add more fire and contraversy.
The rule i find backs up the assumption about them working like screeming jets and has the added benifit its a faq about marines and blood angels (so pertinant)
Chapterapproved book 1 page 44
Nothing in either the new codex space marines (for land speeders) or the new rulebook (for deep strike) contradicts what had previously been in print I see no reason to assume there has been a change.
If there was a change they would FAQ it.
And before you make the argument about the refrence i use being old lets remember that there are many such old refrences still in use and codexes even older.
my $0.02
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Post by dragons3 on Mar 1, 2006 17:22:34 GMT -5
THIS IS GETTING UGLY AND IT'S NOT OUR FAULT! WHEN COMING OUT RESERVES FROM TABLES EDGE WE USE NORMAL MOVEMENT RULES. SO A LAND RAIDER HAS TO MOVE 6 INCHES JUST TO STAY ON THE TABLE, WHICH MEANS HE CAN SHOOT 1 TWIN-LINKED LASCANNON AND HIS TWIN-LINKED HEAVY BOLTER NORMALLY, AND THEN USE MACHINE SPIRIT FOR THE SECOND TWIN-KINK LASCANNON, SO A LANDSPEEDER TORNADO COULD ALSO MOVE 12 INCHES AND FIRE NORMALLY. YOUR GOING TO HATE ME FOR THIS! MY POINT, DEEP STRIKE OR NOT YOU START IN RESERVES, IN A RESERVE MISSION YOU COME IN AS MOVING EVEN IF YOU DON'T MOVE OFF THE TABLE END. WHEN DEEP STRIKING IF YOU ROLL THE TARGET, YOUR MODEL COMES IN JUST ON THE MARKER, (IT DIDN'T MOVE) JUST LIKE LEAVE YOUR MODEL ON THE TABLE EDGE. OK, YOU SCATTER INSTEAD, THE DICE ROLLED ARE A 2 & 3, THATS LESS THAN 6 INCHES AND YOU DID MOVE, CAN YOU FIRE BOTH WEAPONS ON YOUR TORNADO? WHAT IF YOUR DICE ROLLS 2 SIXES THAT MEANS YOU MOVED 12 INCHES AND CAN'T FIRE AT ALL? MY OPINION IS, A HOUSE RULE THAT STATES YOU COME IN MOVING WHICH MEANS GLANCING HITS AND YOU MOVED MORE THAN 12 INCHES, SO YOU CAN NOT FIRE. THATS FAIR FOR AN 80 POINT MODEL.
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Post by Ranger Dude on Mar 1, 2006 17:40:55 GMT -5
by that logic, no one should be able to shoot since the drop pods would have moved over 12" as well and passengers can't shoot or disembark from a vehicle moving that fast, nor could the drop pod shoot.
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Post by Catachan Colonel on Mar 1, 2006 17:49:22 GMT -5
Except you can fire if you move 12" (12"is not OVER 12")
in the case of fast vehicles and troops in or disembarked from a transport.
Dragon's method also does not cover how far it counts if one rolls a direct hit. (because no 2d6" is rolled if you first roll a hit.)
$0.03 now
A 240 point unit deepstriking and then being wiped out by one squad ork str 4 shootas does not seem right for its points. They cost almost as much as a land raider and "can" be taken out by 3 str 4 hits.
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Post by dragons3 on Mar 1, 2006 18:25:19 GMT -5
CATACHAN COLONEL:I STARTED WITH THE WORD TARGET MEANING NO SCATTER! DROP POD RULES ARE ABSOLUTELY CLEAR! SPACEMARINE CODEX, PAGE 21, DROP POD ASSAULT, PARAGRAPH FIVE STATES: ONCE THE DROP POD HAS LANDED THE HATCHES ARE BLOWN AND ALL PASSENGERS MUST IMMEDIATELY DISEMBARK. THE PASSENGERS MAY NOT MOVE (OTHER THAN TO DISEMBARK) OR ASSAULT IN THE TURN THEY LAND. THEY MAY SHOOT BUT COUNT AS MOVING. "DROP PODS HAVE SPECIAL RULES RANGER DUDE." BUT I GET YOUR POINT, THANKS FOR THE RESPONSE.
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Iron Warrior
Moderator
The Iron
Iron Within! Iron Without!
Posts: 2,573
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Post by Iron Warrior on Mar 1, 2006 18:35:59 GMT -5
And try like hell to kill em all! ( I see the "can" in there) nice.
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Post by Ranger Dude on Mar 1, 2006 19:15:58 GMT -5
yes, drop pods have special rules. Speeders don't, and therefore follow the rules in the book which clearly state that units coming in via deep strike may fire on the turn they arrive, but count as moving.
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Post by dragons3 on Mar 1, 2006 19:34:17 GMT -5
FROM COLONEL CATALAN:
Chapter approved book 1 page 44
Quote:QIn the drop pod rules in codex space marines, it States that land speeders may deploy using deep strike rules. How fast are the speeders assumed to be going when they arrive?
A.The speeders are assumed to be moving over 6", so may fire one weapon, and count all hits as glancing.
DO ALL AGREE THIS RULE SHOULD BE INCORPORATED BY THE GROUP FOR NOW, SO WE CAN PLAY THE FREAK EN GAME, or DO WE HAVE TO DE CLAIR SPEEDER DEEP STRIKE RULES BEFORE EVERY GAME?
HAVE A NICE DAY! ;D
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Iron Warrior
Moderator
The Iron
Iron Within! Iron Without!
Posts: 2,573
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Post by Iron Warrior on Mar 1, 2006 20:36:12 GMT -5
I dont agree with useing "old" rules. A New Rule book (ie the BBB) was created. That is the rules that should be used as well as any current FAQ's made for the rule book. The Old rules have been over written! So many times have I heard that single saying.
If your going to quote an Old source and use its rule, Im going to quote old codexs and use there rules...Like red paint and turbo boostas. Dont hypocritize....use the currrent rules set.
All of which were over written by a new edition and new faqs.
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Post by shaun on Mar 1, 2006 22:04:59 GMT -5
Gosh, now I'm agreeing with Iron Warrior (it has frozen over twice) ;D Tommy's quoting a 3rd edition clarification of the rules. First of all, I believe the intent is to still have them carry the same rule as posted in the 1st chapter approved. However, they have not printed anything "official" to make it so in 4th edition. I looked through the whole book and couldn't find one thing that wasn't outdated. Believe me, I wish we could still use that book - it allows me to get 2 point cultists for any chaos army!!!
I would also like to point out if we do go by the chapter approved 1 statement - speeders would only get to fire one weapon when deep striking.
For fun I'm going to play that a deep striking speeder can fire/have glancing hits. In a tournament though, my opponent isn't going to be able to claim he moved enough for a glancing hit. Why, because I'm going to ask him to show it to me in the current rules - and he can't.
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Post by MallSecurity on Mar 1, 2006 22:16:17 GMT -5
I believe that using a 3rd edition book written over 5 years ago by a man no longer working for GW is weak arguement.
The More I read it the more I agree with Vet Sgt E; you moved, but you didn't move over 6" on the Table.
Skimmers are badly undercosted 4th edition anyway.
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Post by colonelellios on Mar 1, 2006 22:42:02 GMT -5
yes, drop pods have special rules. Speeders don't, and therefore follow the rules in the book which clearly state that units coming in via deep strike may fire on the turn they arrive, but count as moving. Actually you're mis-quoting. The rulebook states that *infantry* arriving from deep-strike count as moving... It makes absolutely no mention of vehicles, and the new Space Marine codex overrides *everything* in the old one so I'm sorry Tommy but I think there is a gaping hole in the rules for Speeders currently. It can be interpreted in any way. Therefore the players must agree before the battle how to handle the discrepency (if it comes to dice rolls, so be it... ;D)
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Post by Ranger Dude on Mar 2, 2006 10:37:30 GMT -5
Actually, there is no mention of the word infantry in the BBB rule for Deep strike. It refers to Units and Models. As a landspeeder is both a unit and a model, I guess it still applies. Plus, in the Space marine codex, it says that Speeders may use the Deepstrike rule. Deep strike falls under the universal rules, so the rule stands no matter what. Count as moving, may still shoot. The ambiguity is only in how far, and as shaun points out, it's not stated anywhere in the books, and therefore, less than 6" unless faqed.
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Post by colonelellios on Mar 2, 2006 15:43:06 GMT -5
BGB P. 84. Last paragraph, left-hand side of the page under the "Deep Strike" Mission Special Rule.
The procedure for *placing* models/units (used interchangeably) onto the field from reserves using the Deep-Strike rules is very clear.
The procedure for units arriving via deep-strike and being allowed to *fire*, however, pertains *soley* to *infantry*. The paragraph explicitly adresses infantry and NOT vehicles. (actually "troops" is the exact term they use)
So, the BGB provides rules for *placing* vehicle models from deep-strike, but not for whether or not arriving vehicles can *shoot* or not.
I knew I hadn't misread the rule. The fact stands that the issue of whether or not deep-striking land speeders can fire on the turn they arrive is still entirely unadressed, with the sole exception of the *3rd edition* FAQ stating that they can fire one weapon when they arrive. This is an outdated rule as previously pointed out and lots of things changed from 3rd to 4th, and there is no way to determine if this is one of them.
Since the issue *must* be resolved by the players, I would think it is fair that speeders arriving from deep strike can shoot but count as moving less than 6". So I agree with you and Vet Srg E on this issue. This resolution can be defended (using the "distance actually moved on table" argument) by pointing out that skimmers can no longer "circle" and *must* end their move at least 6" from where they started their move in order to receive the "glancing only" benefit.
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