Comp System

[adsvampire]

Here's my suggestions for VC specific comp:

1. Taking a BSB
2. Only 2 wizards
3. more skeleton units than zombie units
4. No book of arkhan or staff of d**nation
5. no more than one unit of BKs of size 8 or more OR 2 units of size 6 or less
6. no more than one ethereal unit
7. No more ghouls and/or dire wolves than skeleton and zombie units combined
8. Having more or equal units with banners than without banners (BSB counts here)
9. No more than 2 units that can fly (includes thralls, swarms, fell bats, and monstrous mounts)
10. Taking Grave Guard

[boldo]

Okay perhaps the core cshould be 3 at 2x
a shooting unit should be defined as a unit of 5 or more models with shooting. This would excempt chariots and warmachines from the double tax.
20 is really a tax on maxing the system. You could have 2 cavalry, 2 chariots, and 2 great weapon armed characters to under the system and this would be okay but this is an attempt to find a check on the system.
There were other things I wanted to hit but did not get to like fear, fliers, or minimal size units. Any of these could replace something.

As for 17 I really like it. This is the only hit for your all infantry horde army. It says take something else. I think the only army this hoses is high elf as their spearmen have no other choice (so they will have to play seaguard or lose 2 pts) but everyone else can choose one of the less desirable weapon forms! It would be nice to see corsairs, armored skeletons, or two hand weapons more often on the field.

Well if you dislike things we need positive ideas not just female doging so what is needed to fix things.

Boldo

[boldo]

I want everyone to remember that the idea is not to make this easy or even possible to get maximum points. If you do I want there to have been some hard choices made. Armies should score 12-15 of these but to get more should be unacceptably hard to most of us. I am not telling people what to play but trying to provide some army seperation in comp and right now I think this list is too soft.

Boldo

[grumgore]

adsvampire said:

Here's my suggestions for VC specific comp:
<snip>
3. more skeleton units than zombie units
<snip>

Why would you encourage this? I don't see any difference compwise with regards to skeletons or zombies. Both have advantages/disadvantages. I would drop this entry.

overall I like this list for VC's. Why did you add points in the general list for a BSB and then more points for a BSB in a VC army? Is your intention to have additional points? I would disagree with this because there are significant advantages to the VC BSB.

[grumgore]

boldo said:

<snip>
20 is really a tax on maxing the system. You could have 2 cavalry, 2 chariots, and 2 great weapon armed characters to under the system and this would be okay but this is an attempt to find a check on the system.
There were other things I wanted to hit but did not get to like fear, fliers, or minimal size units. Any of these could replace something

Actually i thought 20 said under 5 units (i.e 4 or less). You list out 6 units. The beast army will be hit hard here. Units with str 5 include some characters (including shaman with bray staff), bestigors, chariots, ogres w great weapons, minotaurs w great weapons, dragon ogres, giants, shaggoth...

There are other armies that have a similar problem.

Personally I think this should be dropped. Instead I would try and find a way to penalize armies with more than one flying unit/slot (so two great eagles is ok, etc).

[adsvampire]

OK, grumgore, replace the 2 items with:

1. No Cursed Book
2. Only 2 wizards
3. No Staff of d**nation
4. No Book of Arkhan
5. no more than one unit of BKs of size 8 or more OR 2 units of size 6 or less
6. no more than one ethereal unit
7. No more ghouls and/or dire wolves than skeleton and zombie units combined
8. Having more or equal units with banners than without banners (BSB counts here)
-- maybe replace this one with no DoW
9. No more than 2 units that can fly (includes thralls, swarms, fell bats, and monstrous mounts)
10. Taking Grave Guard

[johnboo]

grumgore said:

Actually i thought 20 said under 5 units (i.e 4 or less). You list out 6 units. The beast army will be hit hard here. Units with str 5 include some characters (including shaman with bray staff), bestigors, chariots, ogres w great weapons, minotaurs w great weapons, dragon ogres, giants, shaggoth...

There are other armies that have a similar problem.

Grum - This is *exactly* why this comp rule is included. Too much high-strength stuff running around unchecked. No penalty for taking all great weapons (for those that can), lances, etc. Strength rules the roost in this edition, making armor for the most part useless or a very poor use of points.

In any case, I dont think losing 2 points on comp is hitting anyone "hard" - though combining this with other beastman hosers (the skirmish one, the chariot one, the 3 core at 2.5 one, the terror one...ad nauseum) and even a tame beast army gets bent over big time.

[Norton]

Please take a look at my comp system at daboyzateam.proboards77.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=wfbtournaments&thread=1140642260&page=1

i tried to create a generic comp set based on things ppl have said and then create individual additional comp lists for each army book. This section was heavily influenced by the warhammer players society list and my own awesome deitificness.

[boldo]

Okay here is the revised system

1 less than 25% characters
2 less than 15% characters
3 No Lord
4 Less than 10 casting or 7 dispel
5 less than 7 casting or 5 dispel
6 less than 10% magic items
7 less than 5% magic items
8 No terror causers
9 less than 4 shooting units
10 less than 3 skirmishing units
11 less than 3 Cavalry units
12 less than 3 artillery
13 less than 3 chariots
14 Have a BSB
15 has atleast 3 standards other than the BSB
16 At least 3 core choices at 2 times minimum
17 No more than 3 units armed and equiped the same
18 No rare choices
19 less than 15% special
20 Fewer than 5 units which can strike at S5 or greater on the charge not counting champions in units

Qualifications:
Cavalry are all models mounted on a cavalry base
For casting dice a bound item power level 3 counts as one, power level 4-5 counts as 2 and power level 6+ counts as 3. One use items do not count at all. Tomb priests, and tomb princes count as 2 dice each, a tomb king counts as 3 and a High tomb priest counts as 4. Spell like effects which can be dispelled count as bound items. Items which can generate dice are considered counted at their maximum possible benefit as long as they are not one use only.
Tomb king chariots count as a only half a chariot each.
Shooting units are those of 5 or more models.
Artillery are all items which no not roll to hit, use the artillery die, are S6 or greater, or can affect multiple models with one shot.

Here are a few more questions
21 no fear causing fliers
22 more than 55% core
23 fewer than 3 units less than 1.5x minimum size not counting units without option for more models.
24 4 or more units full command
25 no duplicate rare or special choices

Perhaps some of these should be included or replace a few of the other questions. Also perhaps it should be 25 general questions at 2 pts and 10 specific questions at 1 pt.

Thanks,
Boldo

[grumgore]

This is starting to look much better. Good job. I really like those additional questions as well, though personally i would classify fliers as anything that move 20" when flying (or put flying bats as an exception to the rule) - but that isn't a big objection and may make it more complicated than its worth.

#17 - in retrospect is a great idea. I like it a lot. It encourages variety in an army.

I think the five additional entries should be also worth 2 points each.

I figure, if the person knows about the comp system in advance, that the averave low comp army will probably score half the points for a variety of reasons giving them 24 or so points. the top points would be 50 points for a 25 point spread. Given that you see the comp system in advance I think 25 point spread is goodness and makes comp worthwhile. They see it in advance so their score should not be a surprise.

I noted that 6 & 7 should be clarified to also include items that come free to a unit, like the errantry banner, and just use the base cost of the banner when calculating the value.

item 25: what about units that allow 2 things for one slot (like bolt throwers)? I would think that you should only count the duplicate slots.

[adsvampire]

I'd modify #9 to say:

Less than 3 shooting units (do not count units with a unit strength less than 6 except for warmachines and skaven weapons teams)

That will eliminate characters and chariots but include dragons, stagdons, and single sally packs.

[grumgore]

adsvampire said:

I'd modify #9 to say:

Less than 3 shooting units (do not count units with a unit strength less than 6 except for warmachines and skaven weapons teams)

That will eliminate characters and chariots but include dragons, stagdons, and single sally packs.

I agree with your intentions, but why not flat out say "...except characters and chariots"? Simple is better, especially if it means the same thing.

[Ranger Dude]

Looks good to me. Goblins get dinged on 16 or have REALLY big Units ( Something I have learned to not do), but as you asid, we should all be dinged a bit. Now we need to come up with army book specific lists.

[grumgore]

;D

gavral said:

Looks good to me. Goblins get dinged on 16 or have REALLY big Units ( Something I have learned to not do), but as you asid, we should all be dinged a bit. Now we need to come up with army book specific lists.

Maybe if you take only goblin hoards. You can do this relatively easy with 2 units of 20 orcs plus a unit of 10 wolf riders. There are also lots of other ways to do this. I agree, 40 goblins in a unit is excessive... unless you are fielding a goblin army and then it should be the norm. Plus I use to field goblin units of 35 when the RTT's gave you comp points for each unit 1.5, 2, or 2.5 times min. It actually works very well and kept them at that count until just recently when I realized that nobody cared anymore that I fielded big units of goblins...

And I really like #23... it is a subtle way of trying to reduce MSU. IMO this should be a +4 points... just because I am tired of seeing a bunch of tiny units on the board just for points denial. It starts looking like a game of 40K.

[grumgore]

Boldo, I really like this system overall. The best thing is that it is simple. To me that is VERY important. I find when I run tournaments that a lot of players have trouble with even basic instructions... this list makes it easy for someone to double check the comp score. You can tell almost everything just looking at the army. Personally I prefer not to do army specific stuff unless we have to.

Well done.

Now is there any loop holes that we are missing? Right now I can't see anything.

Are you planning on using this next weekend?

Just reviewed my O&G army. I presently score a 12/25 but with a small amount of work I can get a 20/25. That is where I see my army and playstyle (Regular system: 4/5). Basically I need to change my army back to what I have been playing for the past five years with the exception of keeping my beloved black orc (which I have grown too fond of to score back another 2 points).