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Post by adsvampire on Feb 23, 2006 21:58:12 GMT -5
A tomb prince should be 1 casting dice and a tomb king 2.
Artillery are all items which no not roll to hit, use the artillery die, are S6 or greater, or can affect multiple models with one shot.
I'd revise this to include creatures ... i.e. salamanders (each one should count as an artillery piece), dragons, treemen, hydras, stegadons, tzeentch spawn, etc.
No more than 3 units armed and equiped the same
What about units that have no equipment options? Or 2 units of skeletons with LA and shield and a unit of tomb guard with LA and shield? That would be 3 units equiped the same.
For casting dice a bound item power level 3 counts as one, power level 4-5 counts as 2 and power level 6+ counts as 3. One use items do not count at all. Tomb priests, and tomb princes count as 2 dice each, a tomb king counts as 3 and a High tomb priest counts as 4. Spell like effects which can be dispelled count as bound items. Items which can generate dice are considered counted at their maximum possible benefit as long as they are not one use only.
What about OG and their free dice generation thanks to engaged units? Or 2 lvl 1 wizards with 4 dispel scrolls? ... woopeee ... not.
no fear causing fliers
Is this a pet peeve?
4 or more units full command
What kind of "Full Command"? Zombies can only get standard and musician. Wardancers can only get unit champs. At minimum "Full Command" should be a standard bearer (that is worth vps).
has atleast 3 standards other than the BSB
The standards need to be worth vps. Bret peasant standards should be excluded.
Cavalry are all models mounted on a cavalry base
Skaven weapons teams are included?
less than 3 skirmishing units
Does a banshee count as a skirmishing unit? Its a single model. If so then characters on 25mm or less bases would be skirmishers as well.
Overall, I like the list as well.
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Post by grumgore on Feb 23, 2006 22:19:19 GMT -5
Artillery are all items which no not roll to hit, use the artillery die, are S6 or greater, or can affect multiple models with one shot.
I'd revise this to include creatures ... i.e. salamanders (each one should count as an artillery piece), dragons, treemen, hydras, stegadons, tzeentch spawn, etc.
I agree that it should include breath weapons of all forms.
No more than 3 units armed and equiped the same
What about units that have no equipment options? Or 2 units of skeletons with LA and shield and a unit of tomb guard with LA and shield? That would be 3 units equiped the same.
I would hope that the intention was for the same type of unit (e.g. skeletons) armed the same way.
I would also expect that units that do not have equipment options be exempt.
For casting dice a bound item power level 3 counts as one, power level 4-5 counts as 2 and power level 6+ counts as 3. One use items do not count at all. Tomb priests, and tomb princes count as 2 dice each, a tomb king counts as 3 and a High tomb priest counts as 4. Spell like effects which can be dispelled count as bound items. Items which can generate dice are considered counted at their maximum possible benefit as long as they are not one use only.
What about OG and their free dice generation thanks to engaged units? Or 2 lvl 1 wizards with 4 dispel scrolls? ... woopeee ... not.
For O&G, this is balanced by the extra roll on the miscast table for every WAAAGGH! generating unit that is fleeing. Plus it is near impossible to factor waaaggh! generation in (we tried to before, Adam, remember?).
As for 2 lvl 1 wizards scroll caddy's... that is a tough one. That is 100 points of magic which works out to 4.4% magic items - and almost a missed checkmark. Plus in a tournament with a comp system like this it would be foolish to take that much dispel goodness... there will be games you won't get to use the scrolls.
That sounds like a sore spot for you. ;D
no fear causing fliers
Is this a pet peeve?
I think it makes sense. Fear causing flyers are very powerful in the game.
4 or more units full command
What kind of "Full Command"? Zombies can only get standard and musician. Wardancers can only get unit champs. At minimum "Full Command" should be a standard bearer (that is worth vps).
IMO, full command is full command. Period. There are enough alternates for all armies to allow full command. For instance in Vamps you have skeletons, tomb guard, and knights. The system is already set up that you could have 3 skeletal units and satisfy this requirement.
has atleast 3 standards other than the BSB
The standards need to be worth vps. Bret peasant standards should be excluded.
Agreed.
Cavalry are all models mounted on a cavalry base
Skaven weapons teams are included?
Good question. Personally I would say yes. Double hit their weapons. I think they deserve it. ;D
Seriously, as a skaven player this system is relatively friendly to skaven. Hitting them for fielding more than 3 shooters, and more than 2 cav, makes sense. Basically if you field 1 jezzail and 2 ratling guns this should be the starting point. Anything more should be penalized, and this actually creates a two phase hit... which they should have to pay for their powerful weapons.
less than 3 skirmishing units
Does a banshee count as a skirmishing unit? Its a single model. If so then characters on 25mm or less bases would be skirmishers as well.
I would think a skirmishing unit should be any unit of 2 or models (so as to include globadiers).
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boldo
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Post by boldo on Feb 24, 2006 1:57:10 GMT -5
I agree with the artillery description mine is just sloppy writting still.
As for units armed the same this is for those of the same name and I do not except units with no choice. This is a do not max up on something so MSU has to spend some points on equipment or get dinged. I am not inclined to exept skaven slaves, dire wolves, ghouls, exc as these are things which can be abused in multiples so ding away. If there is something which gets horribly hosed then please let me know what is it.
As for the dice I think OG get these dice situationally only so let it go and the lvl one with dispel scroll is that not dinged somewhere else. If not then we should.
The fear fliers is an additional ding for that which is bad. Sure it hits VC a bit hard if they want these things but VC is a good army to start with so to make comping them a little bit harder is okay with me. I also think these can just be hard to score due to fear.
I have no sympathy for those items which do not get full command as in every army there are plenty of things which can.
I think the 3+standard may go away for something else as this is really covered in the 4 units with full command so this is a double dinger. Now just what to replace it with.
Once more Skaven is a very tough army and the weapon teams are very good so hitting them again does not bother me too much.
As for skirmishers this is a nice catch I need to define this as other than characters. but in my mind the banshee would count as a skirmisher.
Boldo
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boldo
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Post by boldo on Feb 24, 2006 1:58:52 GMT -5
Presently we are torn on what to do for burpanomicon on March 4. We have put a lot of effort into the Saint Norton system and either this one or the saint norton will be used. I would like some feedback though on what people think is the better system.
Boldo
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Post by grumgore on Feb 24, 2006 6:47:45 GMT -5
Presently we are torn on what to do for burpanomicon on March 4. We have put a lot of effort into the Saint Norton system and either this one or the saint norton will be used. I would like some feedback though on what people think is the better system. Boldo Personally, I like simple from a tournament organizer point of view (as I mentioned earlier). I think that a simple system will help prevent people from missing various checks, and the end tournament pack will be much smaller. In the end I'll be using the better of the two systems for my own tournament in the fall (and probably in any tuornaments I run in advance of this as warm ups).
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Post by grumgore on Feb 24, 2006 6:57:06 GMT -5
I agree with the artillery description mine is just sloppy writting still.
ok.
As for units armed the same this is for those of the same name and I do not except units with no choice. This is a do not max up on something so MSU has to spend some points on equipment or get dinged. I am not inclined to exept skaven slaves, dire wolves, ghouls, exc as these are things which can be abused in multiples so ding away. If there is something which gets horribly hosed then please let me know what is it.
Makes sense to me. It is only one hit so shouldn't be too much of a problem for those you think they "need" to have that many duplicates.
As for the dice I think OG get these dice situationally only so let it go and the lvl one with dispel scroll is that not dinged somewhere else. If not then we should.
I think it is covered under # magic items. The points are pretty steep and 4 scrolls means you take a small magic item and now you are over the top.
The fear fliers is an additional ding for that which is bad. Sure it hits VC a bit hard if they want these things but VC is a good army to start with so to make comping them a little bit harder is okay with me. I also think these can just be hard to score due to fear.
I slept on this. Wouldn't it be better to change this category to Less than 2 units of fliers? There are some excellent fliers like pegasus riders that should be hit if there are too many units.
I have no sympathy for those items which do not get full command as in every army there are plenty of things which can.
Agreed.
I think the 3+standard may go away for something else as this is really covered in the 4 units with full command so this is a double dinger. Now just what to replace it with.
You are right, it is double dipping. If you drop 3+ standards then Personally I would make #23 four points as I mentioned earlier. I have a personal gripe about MSU. It really starts making the battlefield look like 40K, and less about large blocks of troops.
Once more Skaven is a very tough army and the weapon teams are very good so hitting them again does not bother me too much.
Agreed. Skaven have a bit of an advantage on most other categories that dinging them twice on weapon teams is goodness.
As for skirmishers this is a nice catch I need to define this as other than characters. but in my mind the banshee would count as a skirmisher.
I don't think they should be counted as skirmishers... if anything because it opens a can of worms with regards to what should be considered a skirmisher. Weapon teams should only be hit twice, not three times. They are considered skirmishers but are one model (with the exception of jezzails). Keep things simple and minimize exceptions. There are enough other things hitting VC's that you should let this one go.
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Post by adsvampire on Feb 24, 2006 8:55:05 GMT -5
I'd say make skaven weapons teams artillery and skirmishers ... but not cavalry. Of course 3 dings is cool to me ;D .
No more than 3 units of the same type armed and equiped the same
I'd drop the number to 2 if worded as above. People should not need triples of the exact same unit.
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Post by grumgore on Feb 24, 2006 9:08:00 GMT -5
I'd say make skaven weapons teams artillery and skirmishers ... but not cavalry. Of course 3 dings is cool to me ;D . No more than 3 units of the same type armed and equiped the sameI'd drop the number to 2 if worded as above. People should not need triples of the exact same unit. I would hit the weapon teams twice. If you call ratling guns skirmishers then so are characters - that is why I prefer unit size min. 2 models. I am only looking for simple verbage. I prefer 3 units equipped the same - if for any reason other than me having to paint up new models But I do see some merit to having this reduced to 2. So basically I am saying I am somewhat neutral here. I haven't seen any strong arguements for either 2 or 3 yet.
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Post by johnboo on Feb 24, 2006 13:46:16 GMT -5
Hmmmm.....With minimal work, I can get my HE Dragon army to clock in at 24-26 pts. Close enough for my cheesy butt!
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Post by grumgore on Feb 24, 2006 15:24:17 GMT -5
Hmmmm.....With minimal work, I can get my HE Dragon army to clock in at 24-26 pts. Close enough for my cheesy butt! What is your dragon list composed of? I forgot what you had.
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Post by johnboo on Feb 24, 2006 15:34:35 GMT -5
What is your dragon list composed of? I forgot what you had. Prince- dragon, Sword of might, Armor of pro., Enc shield, Ring of Corin 545pts Commander- eagle, lance, HA, shield, Reaver Bow. 170pts. L1 mage- channeler, 2 scrolls. 145pts. 1 x 20 spears - St, mus 238pts 1 x 19 spears - St, mus 227pts 2 x 5 helms - Ha, Sh, 115pts each 1 x 10 Dragon Princes- FC, Warbanner 325pts 2 chariots 170pts 2 eagles 100pts 1 RBT 100pts Lots of dings in the original form, but I can rework the magic items and combine the SH units, add champs and a spearelf to the spearelf units and it can claim about 50% of the questions.
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Post by grumgore on Feb 24, 2006 17:40:59 GMT -5
Prince- dragon, Sword of might, Armor of pro., Enc shield, Ring of Corin 545pts Commander- eagle, lance, HA, shield, Reaver Bow. 170pts. L1 mage- channeler, 2 scrolls. 145pts. 1 x 20 spears - St, mus 238pts 1 x 19 spears - St, mus 227pts 2 x 5 helms - Ha, Sh, 115pts each 1 x 10 Dragon Princes- FC, Warbanner 325pts 2 chariots 170pts 2 eagles 100pts 1 RBT 100pts
Lots of dings in the original form, but I can rework the magic items and combine the SH units, add champs and a spearelf to the spearelf units and it can claim about 50% of the questions.
Lets see what you have: 4, 5, maybe 6, 9, 10, 12, 13, maybe 15, 16, 17, maybe 23, maybe 24, 25.
13/25. That works out to about 2.6/5. That looks about right for that list. You have a dragon, but by having only a few large cav units and little magic support this is an average tough tournament list IMO. It would be over the top if you had 10 dice of magic, etc.
Did I add up something wrong?
When you factor in 2 points per check mark that means you are 24 points down from a perfect score. My O&G's will be 10 points down, so I'll have a 14-point overall score advantage. When you figure in that in a two day tournament that 50% of your games will be against opponents with similar strengthed armies I think this works out.
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Post by johnboo on Feb 24, 2006 18:34:10 GMT -5
Did I add up something wrong? No, you worked it out the same as me. I was just figuring each check was worth 2 points each, so we came to the same conclusion. I was just using it as an example for Boldo (he knows the list well) to see where it drops in for points; I think it falls right where he expected it. You are correct, I certainly could have built it tougher, but the above is just about the hardest list I will play without feeling dirty.....
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Post by Ranger Dude on Feb 25, 2006 7:56:49 GMT -5
As far as preference, I'm torn. I have to agree that simple is good, but if the judges are willing to put up with a more complex system, then I think the St. Norton System is better. If we are going to use that one for the GT, then we should start playtesting it sooner rather than later. We've put a lot of discussion into it and we've made quite a bit of progress. Now it's time to get it in play.
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boldo
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Post by boldo on Feb 25, 2006 21:46:49 GMT -5
I am thinking of adding a list of things which are bad to the general list. This is a simple form of the longer per army deductions. I am thinking of the following items to ding at -2 each
steam tank dragon greater demon banner of battle anvil of doom Banner of the lady of the lake book of arkhan taking an army for the storm of chaos whatever the free move banner of the lizardmen rune of stromni redbeard
Is there anything else I am missing or do you think this is a bad idea.
Boldo
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