The Saint Norton Comp System

[grumgore]

lordnorton said:

I don't understand your post about vamps/bretts not having to pay for marks/gifts?

These are included under the "Points spent on magic items" i can rephrase to make that more clear.

To be more clear, why is a one use item like "dangly Wotnoz" -2 points, and you still get hit for overall magic item points spent, when something like (I think it is called) virtue of joust only hits you on points spent on magic items? I think the virtue is "a bit more" useful then the one use magic item.

I would like to see the virtues, chaos marks, etc. also evaluated.

[grumgore]

The goblin great shaman deal goes like this, to begin with it's the cheapest lvl 4 wizard you can get in the game, it could be toughness 2 and still be a bargain. Next, it still has access to all the spells the orc great shaman has and it really dosnt give up any fighting potential when we get down to it.

Although I would agree that the goblin wizard is the cheapest, it is also rightly so because of the chances of miscast and how fatal the miscast can be. You also have probably the lowest leadership of any wizard. The only thing that would make the goblin great shaman worth fielding is the knobbly staff, and I have already mentioned that a couple of the O&G magic item costs do not make sense. To do what you want, I would make the knobbly staff -3 for orcs and -5 for goblins. That would balance it out.

The deal with the orc general and the goblin units? Ok, this is preclude seeing the all goblin horde army being led around by fighty orc heros. Its not a huge issue and one I rarely see and correspondingly it's not a large ding.

Not to sound pretensious, but I rarely see orc armies with more orc units than goblins. And it makes sense since weedly goblins would flock to stronger orcs. To comprimise I would only bestow this penalty if goblin untis outnumber orc units by more than 2:1. I think that would achieve what you want for end effect.

Next how many times have I seen the one token unit of night goblins taken just to have it's 3 fanatics. 3 Fanatics that cost more then the goblin unit they came from. Also not a huge ding if you take 1-2 per goblin unit, this means you've invested a significan model count into night goblins.

I am not sure. In the 11 years I have been playing the game across North America, I see this as the exception as opposed to the norm. The more effective playing style for O&G is to field 1 or 2 fanatics in each unit. it makes it very hard to pop them prematurely, you spread your points around, and one unit with fanatics isn't easily panicked after losing 5 models.

Also going back to your previous posts, we decided the bonus for the black coach is gone and we have not decided upon a list for armies such as the Army of silvania or any of the hordes of chaos book lists, although my personal opinion starts with "all armies from hordes of chaos -10, seaguard -15" but we'll see.

I appreciate that. I didn't see why the black coach should be rewarded. I am relieved that you are going to try and consider the SoC seperately.

All points i'm willing to debate and with proper argument I am willing to tweak points.

I am not sure how to take this comment. I am assuming that you are not trying to be insulting and it is just a poor choice of words.

This style list will always draw complaints and conflict.

Agreed.

But because of this we did have what was possibly our largest draw ever for a fantasy tournement last time it was run. There was griping but overall we end up with this wonderfull set of wide spread comp scores.

How big was this draw? 40? 50 players? So you have used this system before? Do you have the breakdown of how different armies did relative to each other?

And you can actually attribute your comp scoring system as to why the attendance was so high?

It's an impartial judge of comp that bonus's generic units, variation in army lists, and underplayed or overshadowed units. Everyone has knowledge of it ahead of time and with minor tweaks can improve their scores.

I understand WHY you are trying to this. I have done it very successfully in previous editions of the game. But now that there are much more armies, and they are even more diverse, I believe it is very difficult to come up with a good comp system. That is why I am trying to help out. But if only I can do is comment, without proper debate (as it appears is how you want to do this) then it is a pointless exercise for me - I am wasting my time.

[adsvampire]

First ... what is the target comp score? This will make a big difference on my replies and suggestions.


Please add Annoyance of Netlings and Pageant of Shrikes to the wood elf restricted item list. I'd even go so far as to say the netlings should be a -3. It'll help to avoid the nye unkillable Ancient of Doom.

And thanks to the General comp penalties a black coach is worth -3 ... like you ever see one in a regular VC army. A regular VC army should receive a +3 (i.e. no penalty) for taking that one overpriced easily destroyed coach (or restrict the bonus to von carstein only ... for fluff reasons).


OK, I play TK but likely will not for the tournament ... but this list of penalties is rediculous.

Tomb Kings
-3 High Liche priest
-2 Each priest after the 1st
-3 Each prince
-4 Each tomb king
-8 Any non-Tomb Kings spellcaster
-2 Casket of souls
-2 Each scorpion over 1
-3 Each unit of Ushabti after the 1st
-3 Each unit of chariots over 2
-6 Each bone giant after the 1st
-4 Each catapult after the 1st
-2 Each catapult with skulls of the foe upgrade
+3 No lord taken
+1 Icon bearer, Note this is in addition to the generic +2 for taking a BSB
+2 Each unit of light cav
+1 Each unit of heavy cav
+1 Each unit of carrion
+1 Each unit of Bowmen
+2 Each unit of Skeleton Warriors with full command
+3 Taking a unit of Tomb Guard if army is led by a tomb prince
+1 Taking a unit of Tomb Guard if army is led by a tomb king

So a TK army lead by a king with 2 priests starts at -6!!! You guys don't hate TK to much do you? Tell Jason to stop kicking your butts.

So if I take 2 bone giants I get -6 when a wood elf army can take 2 treemen for -4. That definitely does not look right. Treemen should be -6 for the second just like the BG and OG Giant.

I'd suggest giving a -4 penalty for each priest above the 2nd (drop the -2 for each after first). Drop the tomp prince penalty. The army restrictions alone (required prince/king) bring on an automatic -3 or -4 for what many consider a nicely balanced army. The Tomb King penalty should be dropped ... guys ... its Tomb Kings ... the army is completely dependent upon magic ... the troops can't even march without it.

The casket of souls is a huge liability for a TK army. I would not penalize someone for taking one. I'd give the person a bonus of +2 instead. It royally stinks.

The TK IB bonus should be bigger. He's incrediably easy to kill and absorbs a precious character slot in an army that MUST have useful characters. I'd bump that up to a +4. You already have harsh construct penalties to deter overuse of such.


Vampire counts
-2 Master Necromancer
-4 Vampire Lord
-2 Each unit of wolves after 2
-1 Each spellcaster lever over 6
-3 Each Spellcaster level over 9
-4 Each unit of knights over 2
-2 Each unit of fell bats over 2
-4 Each banshee over 1
+4 No Lord taken
+3 Lahmian Count or Lord
+1 Each Lahmian Thrall
+2 Necrach Count or Lord
+1 Necrach Thrall
+1 Carstein Lord or Count
+1 Each unit of skeletons, take an addition +1 if full command
+1 Each unit of Zombies, take an additional +1 if Full command. Note this is stand and musician only.
+2 Grave guard unit

Taking Necrarch thralls should be a +2 bonus. Have you every seen anyone play one let alone 2 or more? They are incredibly bad for their points.

Why is a vampire lord -4? The upgrade costs as much as another character, costs a hero slot, and limits the magical item selections for the army. And finally, it concentrates the fighting potential of the army into a single character. I think the bonus is appropriate for AoS but not normal VC. I'd drop it to -2 if the vamp lord is a lvl 3 wizard.

A second banshee -4??? Why? With the huge increase in ItP troops the banshee is of increasingly limited use. I'd drop the penalty to -2.

Vampire Counts
Book of Arkhan (-4)
Black Periapt
Walking Death
Iron Sinews
Summon Wolfs
Summon Ghouls
Summon Bats
Staff of d**nation
Rod of Flaming Death (-0)
Cursed Book
Power Familiars

Remove the Rod of Flaming over-price since it has no penalty anyway.

Why is Iron Sinews on the list and Sword of Might is not? Its the same thing. Oh, the sword of might is magical which a better bonus as well. I'd remove this one. Summon Wolves/Ghouls/Bats should be removed as well ... assuming this list applies to a normal VC army.

[adsvampire]

Army of Sylvania

-3 For using the army of sylvania
-2 Vampire Lord
-1 Each unit of wolves after 2
-1 Each unit of fell bats over 2
-4 For taking a second black coach
+7 No Lord taken (this is a HUGE nerf to the army)
+1 Each unit of militia, take an addition +1 if full command
+1 Each unit of levy, take an additional +1 if Full command. Note this is stand and musician only.
+2 Grave Guard/Drakenhoff Guard unit (one bonus only)
+1 Drakenhoff Templars
+1 Spirit Hosts Unit (the army has little magic defense)

Restricted Items
Book of Arkhan (-4)
Black Periapt
Walking Death (each)
Summon Wolves (each)
Summon Bats
Staff of d**nation
Cursed Book
Power Familiars
Wolf Form (each)

[Norton]

To grumgore.

Actually I enjoy your feedback here, I wish we had more ppl contributing to the discussion. I like several of the reccemendations you've put forward and have made changes to the list.

I didnt mean to come off sounding rude, I meant to imply that i wanted to see what list items ppl would like to see changed/added/removed and why they thought so.

I did ding several of the vampire marks and virtues, the virtue of duty comes to mind as the most overused. What others do you think are over the top and/or overused? I can easily add to the list.

I've thought about your suggestions and i've cut down the penalty for the goblin shaman and instead changed the nobbly staff ,and the goblin/orc ratio , i'll post changes shortly.

[Norton]

Ok, here's what i got.

The reson for the points on the tomb king characters is this, both the king and the prince cast spells each turn, the full complement of 2 priests, a prince and a king is effectively ~10 casting dice (2 each for the priests and prince, 4 for the king) most other armies will be penalized in the -13 to -15 range for this, they rack up only a -9. I understood thier need for magic and did give them a reprieve.

I see your point on the treeman and it's been changed.

The casket of souls was in my opinion just a big bound item that forced you to waste 2 dispel dice a turn at the cost of hiding a wizard in the back, much like the dwarf anvil but not quite as good. I thought it deserves as much a penalty as any of the other over the top magic items but being an upgrade was listed here. Why do you think it a liability? Anyone else have an opinion on it?

As far as the icon bearer goes, it's one of two characters not penalized for you to take but i could see upping the bonus to 4 as it's rarely seen.

[johnboo]

adsvampire said:

Please add Annoyance of Netlings and Pageant of Shrikes to the wood elf restricted item list. I'd even go so far as to say the netlings should be a -3. It'll help to avoid the nye unkillable Ancient of Doom.

Agreed. Annoyance lives up to its name, for sure.

adsvampire said:

OK, I play TK but likely will not for the tournament ... but this list of penalties is rediculous.

Tomb Kings
+3 No lord taken
+1 Icon bearer, Note this is in addition to the generic +2 for taking a BSB
+2 Each unit of light cav
+1 Each unit of heavy cav
+1 Each unit of carrion
+1 Each unit of Bowmen
+2 Each unit of Skeleton Warriors with full command
+3 Taking a unit of Tomb Guard if army is led by a tomb prince
+1 Taking a unit of Tomb Guard if army is led by a tomb king
So a TK army lead by a king with 2 priests starts at -6!!! You guys don't hate TK to much do you? Tell Jason to stop kicking your butts.

But you gain the points right back for putting skeletons on the table. A TK army does have skeletons, doesnt it? So you dont gain or lose anything.

And yes, Please tell Jason to stop kicking our butts! ;D

adsvampire said:

Why is Iron Sinews on the list and Sword of Might is not? Its the same thing. Oh, the sword of might is magical which a better bonus as well. I'd remove this one. Summon Wolves/Ghouls/Bats should be removed as well ... assuming this list applies to a normal VC army.

Maybe because (correct me if I'm wrong) EVERY STRIGOI VAMPIRE never leaves home without it. Think of this is more of a diversity zinger. No one takes a Sword of Might except HE players where it is a bargain with the magic item discount, and DOW army players, who dont really have any other real option for a magic sword.

[Norton]

Ok, i posted the new changes and the (slightly changed) list for silvania. Check and see if the changes you requested are ther and let me know what else you'd like changed.

Johnboo, you're our beastmen / highelf guru, what do you think about those 2 lists? I had thought about changing thier scaling for points spent on magic items since they are cheaper then standard, good idea? bad idea?

[Wolf Lord Snorville]

Sounds like a good start to me. We should use it for a few RTTs to iron out the bumps so we can use it for the big one.

[evilerik]

aight well I don't play fantasy but I was asked for my .02c so here i go:

General:
seems pretty good, but aren't BSB really good, so why make it a +2 for them?

Bretonnians:
-4 for a Pegasus Knight unit seems like a lot

Chaos:
i like #4 and 5
the + for taking Marauders is good

Daemon Units:
seems good

Beast Units:
maybe a small "-" for taking a Giant

Chaos Dwarves:
good

Dwarves:
good, esecially all of the "+" ones

Empire:
maybe a -6 for Steamtank

Dark Elves:
haha, a +5 for playing dark elves, nice
+1 just for taking a unit of spear elves or corsaits seems off

High Elves:
maybe -1 for each Eagle over 1

Lizardmen:
"+1 for Saurus" don't u have to take these guys?
make it a +3 for Skink Chief as General

Orcs and Goblins:
again, just a -1/-2 for taking a giant

Tomb Kings:
basically i see a "-" for taking any of the HQ. Seems wierd.

Wood Elves:
-1/-2 for each Giant Eagle after 1
i like the last 3 "+"'s

Ogres:
good

Skaven:
good, especially the "-"s about weapons teams

I'll finish up later. Again I probably don't know what I'm talking about. Later.

[boldo]

To some this discussion may sound a little one sided as for the past few nights we have discussed this at the store until well after midnight and though we have not posted there is the imput of 4-6 people on this. This system is a modification of the one used a few years ago by the warhammer players society in England for their yearly championship. The spend a lot of time on it and then used it and got a lot of feadback from the players. It must be remembered that we are improving on another system. But the WPS did not use it again. Your imput has directly affected the system which we have revised a few times already. Adam you had great eyes for some of the oddeties of the TK and this is some of the most important things we are looking for particularly the cross army comparisons. This list will radically change in the morning as I spent most of the evening on the thankless task of calibrating the list so please look it over again. Finally this is one of the two lists being considered right now and we are very interested in knowing which one people like better this or the one in the comp system post so please let us know.

Thanks for your help,
Boldo

[boldo]

Evil E,

Look at the 40k comp section and give me your imput there as there is some room there for some changes.

Thanks,
Boldo

[Iron Warrior]

I support this type of comp system. I think its the fairest one ive seen so far in my 8 years of playing fantsy. YOur gonna take hits face it. YOu play a chedder army expect bigger hits for it. No one is telling you, that you dont have to play that army but dont expect people to like it either that your playing a harder army than most.

Cause lets face facts here; There are good armies, mediocre armies and really bad armies. I think in a tournament you should handicap the good armies some way (comp is a good way to do it) to help out the really bad armies. Because I play a poorly written army should not exclude me from winning a tournament. I dislike power gamers to the max, they take the game out of contex; TO HAVE FUN. not WAAC (Win At All Costs) Bullsh!t. If you think that tournaments are for tooling up your army to WAAC then you need tostep back, sit down and realize your playing with toy soldiers. nuff said.

[johnboo]

lordnorton said:

Johnboo, you're our beastmen / highelf guru, what do you think about those 2 lists? I had thought about changing thier scaling for points spent on magic items since they are cheaper then standard, good idea? bad idea?

You got most of my ideas last night, but we didnt mention the magic item discount. Its a racial ability just what HE get for being a HE (along with T3 lords : - I wouldnt penalize them for this anymore than I would penalize DE for having +1 to cast, or rewarding O&G for having animosity.

[adsvampire]

Johnboo, Iron Sinews is the only strength raising option strigoi have. They can't take mundane equipment or magical items. You don't see a penalty for taking a great weapon and how often do you see them?

Instead, add curse of the Revenant and Batform to the VC restricted list.