Vampire counts for the Da Boyz tournament

[boldo]

Okay much to my displease I am forced to give a FAQ for Vampire Counts for the Da Boyz tournament. Now I want everyone to remember that this is official for this tournament only and will remain in effect unless GW comes out with an official one. I am not really interested in arguing over these and I accept that all rulings I make may be wrong but that is how we will play. If you would like to discuss this with me please do so in private messages. Now there are a few questions I think are important enough to answer so read all of these carefully as the book left many major questions unanswered.

1 The corpse cart is at all times treated as a monster. When ridden by the necromancer it is a monsterous mount in all ways but does not have to take a bound monster test when the necromancer is killed. Its US is equal to its starting wounds and with a necromancer its unit size is +1.

2 Skeletial steeds movement etheraland they do not lose movement if barded but if they are stupid then when they fail the stupidity test they will blunder foward and not be able to move further. If Skeletial knights end their movement in impassable terrain then they are destroyed.

3 The howling banshee can not shoot at unit in close combat unless it is engaged with that unit.

4 Invocation may not be into hand to hand combat

5 For the purposes of Invocation of Nehek Fell Bats and Bat swarms are not infantry and created units of spirit Hosts can not have wounds restored above the even if their are missing wounds on the initial creation.

6 Vanhel's Dance Macabre may be cast into hand to hand combat.

These should be the major questions and if there are others please get me during the tournament.

Thanks,
Boldo

[skyth]

I thought that the Vampire can cast invocation on himself in hth.

[MajorSoB]

I did find Cory Burn's canadian ruling, it is a bit odd that the link does not work but if you navigate to Commisar's Corner under Hall of Heroes you can find it. Here is what he wrote:

"Although the season is over, organizers have up until March 10th to submit any outstanding tournament results. It is important to get all the results in as it might be the difference for a player qualifying for the Grand Tournament, or not.
With the release of the Vampire Counts army book there are several issues to address. The first is the issue of the Sylvanian army list in the Storm of Chaos book. The reason behind the Sylvanian list was to allow players to field an army without necromancers, an army based solely on Vampire characters. The list compensated for the lack of wizards through additional bound spells and the ability to take a high level of magical defence. The new Vampire Counts book was written with a similar focus, to make the army into a legion of the dead commanded by Vampires. The new book allows you to field an all Vampire army, but without all the restrictions of the Sylvanian list. The new book even allows you to field all the models from the Sylvanian list including multiple Black Coaches and Grave Guard with great weapons. With the new book there really is no need for the Sylvanian list and as such it will not be a legal army list in the 2008-2009 Hall of Heroes Season.

The second issue with the release of the Vampire Counts book, are the spells Invocation of Nehek and Vanhels Danse Macabre. The question that has risen is can these spells be cast on a friendly unit engaged in close combat. In the Warhammer Rulebook it states that a “wizard cannot cast spells at units engaged in close combat unless the spell only affects the caster or the spell description specifies otherwise.” Neither of these spells specify that they can target a unit in close combat, but both of them imply that you can. As healing units in combat is fundamental to the Vampire Counts Army the following ruling applies.

For the 2008-2009 Hall of Heroes season Invocation of Nehek, Vanhels Danse Macabre and the replenished wounds from Summon Undead Horde can target friendly units engaged in close combat."

I do think this ruling is very clear.

[boldo]

I will respect the rulings of Mr. Burns when in Canada

[adsvampire]

5 For the purposes of Invocation of Nehek Fell Bats and Bat swarms are not infantry

This is absolutely retarded. Fell Bats and Bat Swarms are classified as infantry ... there is no ambiguity involved ... so why essentially CHANGE a rule?

[arash]

Yes, I know that you aren't interested in a discussion, but could you at least give a justification of #5?

[Brian]

I noticed the Vanhel's book (bound 3) on the comp list - since the item has a 1 in 6 chance of losing power it seems harsh to cost a point.

[boldo]

It seems to me that the spell does not specify and basing rules on this is tenuous at best (no one advocating the Necomancer riding the sorpse cart uses the reference to call the corpse cart a monster) as it is a refence guide and in the past has been notoriously wrong. So the spell designates only 4 types of troops Vampire, Ethereal, or non-infantry and Infantry. It does not define what is what under the unit types or the spell so we must move on to other sources. The rule book defines infantry as "all units of foot troops, ..., fighting on foot. Normally, infantry are mounted on a 20mm, 25mm or 40mm square base. A typical infantry regiment can include 10, 20, 40 or even more models! Infantry forms the backbone of most warhammer armies." pg 7. Now while these units are on 40mm bases they are fliers and not fighting on foot, do not form the backbone of a warhammer army (are not considered core), and can only be taken in the minimial qulifing number set out. They seem to be a bad fit for infantry. Under fliers on pg68 it states that some units have the fly special rule and these are fliers which is used as a troop type distinct from the others. Pg 72 "Characters can join a friendly unit of troops -- infantry, cavalry, unit of chariots or a war machine's crew, but never a monster, single chariot, unit of flyiers or another character." This also sets out fliers as a unit type and forbids characters from entering them but allowing them to join infantry. As these are fliers it seems characters could not join them and thus they must not be infantry.

In light of this I felt pretty confident that without a true reference to what is infantry I could rule that fliers are not infantry. As you can see I did take this question lightly and have but a whole lot of rules exploration into it. Do you have a conherent rules based counter arguement I did not address?

Boldo

[johnboo]

brian said:

I noticed the Vanhel's book (bound 3) on the comp list - since the item has a 1 in 6 chance of losing power it seems harsh to cost a point.

Brian, There's also plenty of one use only items on there. A free move spell that only has a 17% chance of failure every time you use it is some good. Believe me, it earns it's nickname "Paperback of Archon". It must be mass-printed, because every necromancer has a copy!

[adsvampire]

It seems to me that the spell does not specify and basing rules on this is tenuous at best (no one advocating the Necomancer riding the sorpse cart uses the reference to call the corpse cart a monster) as it is a refence guide and in the past has been notoriously wrong.

This is completely irrelevant to this discussion. The past doesn't matter. Look at what it says now.

So the spell designates only 4 types of troops Vampire, Ethereal, or non-infantry and Infantry. It does not define what is what under the unit types or the spell so we must move on to other sources. The rule book defines infantry as "all units of foot troops, ..., fighting on foot. Normally, infantry are mounted on a 20mm, 25mm or 40mm square base. A typical infantry regiment can include 10, 20, 40 or even more models! Infantry forms the backbone of most warhammer armies." pg 7. Now while these units are on 40mm bases they are fliers and not fighting on foot,

Don't fliers land after they move? If they do then that would mean they fight while on "foot".

do not form the backbone of a warhammer army (are not considered core), and can only be taken in the minimial qulifing number set out.

Wraiths seem to contradict this argument and can be taken below the min # set out. Does that mean they are not infantry? They are probably not the backbone of the army, certainly are not core (although this is not a rule in any form and should be dropped from all further discussion), and have a max unit size of 10 (the min for "INFANTRY"). That leaves categorizing them based solely upon base size and the fact that they fight while on "foot" ... they float and are ethereal so clearly do not fight while on "foot" (they don't have feet).

They seem to be a bad fit for infantry. Under fliers on pg68 it states that some units have the fly special rule and these are fliers which is used as a troop type distinct from the others. Pg 72 "Characters can join a friendly unit of troops -- infantry, cavalry, unit of chariots or a war machine's crew, but never a monster, single chariot, unit of flyiers or another character." This also sets out fliers as a unit type and forbids characters from entering them but allowing them to join infantry. As these are fliers it seems characters could not join them and thus they must not be infantry.

Fliers are definitely not a unit type ... you absolutely will not find "Fliers" as a unit type category anywhere in the book. If I give a Liche Priest the cloak of the dunes does it stop being an infantry model? No. There are lots of examples of unit types that are fliers ... pegasus knights (cavalry that can fly), a dragon (a monster that can fly), harpies (INFANTRY that can fly). Flying unit and flight are special rules ... saying they are unit type classifications is absurd.



Are fell bats and batswarms monsters, warmachines, chariots, characters, or cavalry? No. So what else is left? Infantry. By a process of elimination you are left with one and only one possible classification. I certainly hope you are not implying they be classified as monsters!


I find it funny that you ruled against casting Invok on engaged units and then rule that fell bats and bat swarms are not infantry based upon what appears to be intent alone.

[adsvampire]

Just as an aside, look at 96 of the VC book (the last page). Fell Bats and Bat Swarms are listed in the section titled 'INFANTRY".

SLAM DUNK! THE CROWD GOES WILD! ;D

I have exercised the demons. Losers ... losers .. lahoo zahers.

I got it off the latest warhammer Podcast. There is no longer any doubt what they are. Also, the Corpse Cart is listed as a monster.

[arash]

Yeah, I was thinking along the lines of being actually listed as infantry made them infantry.

Furthermore, neither my wardancers nor my white lions constitute the core of my army. Neither do tomb guard, or any other "elite" infantry. By your first point Grave guard wouldn't be infantry either!

[boldo]

What is this warhammer podcast? Is this some official rules or warhammer listing I do not know of? If some official listing has come out I would like to know about it.

Boldo

[adsvampire]

Not official but I did get the page number for the reference in the VC book. Just look at the very last page in the VC book ... the reference chart and all will be answered my son.

Podhammer web address: www.podhammer.net/

[Norton]

Reference guides are never admisable as rules. C'mon you've been playing long enough to know that...

And when did podcasts ever become credible? If any 14 year old can make one, then I'm not interested in what they say.