Comp System Version #12118398525925

[searsr]

I was reading through some of the other Warhammer forums, especially about the Vegas GT, and quite a few threads surfaced regarding soft scoring at tournaments, especially composition and sportsmanship scoring. The Las Vegas GT did not have a composition score this year, (none of the US GTs will), and some people use sportsmanship as a composition score also.
That got me thinking about how all the approaches I have seen for composition scoring try and neuter the stronger armies and units, while trying to bolster the weaker armies and units. Most of the systems that I have seen fail in this, unless they are very specific and lengthy.
So I came up with a composition system that I think is simple and accomplishes (I think) what I want it to. It punishes a player for taking an army that more than likely will result in a bad game for his opponent. My opinion is that the reason that most people go to Warhammer tournaments is for more than just crushing their opponents into the ground. Most go to spend a day or a weekend hanging out with people who have similar hobbies and enjoy the same hobby as they do. So a person that brings an army that is designed to crush the other person without any thought as to whether or not the opponent needs to be there, is to me an army that has poor composition.

Now, normally I wouldn't have posted this here, but Alex has expressed an interest in trying it out for one of the nemesis crown tournaments that he is running in July, so I thought that I would put it here and see what people think.


My Comp System

Every army begins with 25 comp points. If you answer Yes to any of the following questions, you score a 0 in comp. All other armies score a 25.

General
1. Does your army contain more than 10 Power Dice?
Power Level 3 Bound Items count as 1 Power Dice, Power Level 4-6 Bound Items count as 2 Power Dice and Power Level 7+ Bound Items count as 3 Power Dice. Items that can generate or store Power Dice count as the average amount of Dice they can generate/store, rounding up.
Tomb Kings do not count the basic 2 Power Dice. Each Tomb Prince after the first count as 1 Power Dice, each Liche Priest counts as 3 Power Dice, a Tomb King counts as 3 Power Dice and a High Liche Priest counts as 6 Power Dice. The Hieratic Jar counts as 2 Power Dice if carried by a Liche Priest, or as 3 Power Dice if carried by a High Liche Priest. The Casket of Souls counts as 3 Power Dice.

2. Does your army contain more than 6 Dispel Dice?
Chaos armies that contain no magic users do not count the basic 2 Dispel Dice.
Items that can generate/store Dispel Dice count as the average amount of Dice they can generate, rounding up. If an item can generate/store Power and/or Dispel Dice, then assume that they are generating Dispel Dice.
Each Dispel scroll after the 2nd count as 2 Dispel Dice.

3. Does your army contain more than 4 War Machines?

4. Does your army contain more than 5 shooting units?
Do not count characters unless the character fires a magical shot and/or is capable of doing more than 1 wound in a single shooting phase. Do not count chariots. Do not count any unit that is US 9 or less and has no special shooting rules.

5. Does your army contain more than 3 chariots?
Tomb King armies may have 8 chariots before they get this deduction.

6. Does your army have 2 of the same Rare choice or 3 of the same Special choice?
Units that are 2 for 1 choice in Rare or Special slots only count as one choice unless more than 2 are taken.

7. Does your army not have at least +3 ranks?
To qualify, you must have 1 or more unit(s) that are able to claim rank bonus in h-t-h. Example - a unit of 10 archers can be ranked 5X2 and thus would count as +1 rank. That army would then need to have +2 more ranks. You don't have to deploy your units in this formation during the game to qualify. Ogre Kingdom armies are exempted from this question.

Army Specific

Brettonia
8. Does your army contain more than 1 unit of Pegasus Knights?

Dwarves
9. Does your army contain Thorek?
10. Are you using the Slayer list from the Storm of Chaos book?

Empire
11. Does your army contain Karl Franz?
12. Does your army contain a War Alter and a Steam Tank?

High Elves
13. Are you using the Seaguard list, with a Sealord, from the Storm of Chaos book?

Beasts of Chaos
14. Does your army contain Morghur?
15. Does your army contain Khazrak?

Skaven
16. Are you using the Clan Eshin list from the Storm of Chaos book?

Lizardmen
17. Does your army contain a 2nd Generation Slann?


Thats it. For those of you who saw a different version of this system, I did away with the -5,10 and 15 point questions as I think that goes against what this system does.

For everyone, what do you think? Specifially, is there a particular unit, army build or item that you think deserves to be put on this list.

Thanks,
Ryan

[MallSecurity]

11. Does your army contain Karl Franz?

Kurt Helborg is better than Karl Franz, he should probably be on the list.

I would also Penalize Multiple Screaming Skull Catapults

[johnboo]

Ahh, a new comp system to disect and rip apart on a monday morn!

Overall, seems ok. Rather heavy handed - if you hit any violation, no soup for you! 25pts, or nothing.

<edit out the stuff that refers to restrictions that Ryan edited out of his first post>

[ccourtney]

Seeing as how I barely know enough about fantasy to play this feedback might not be relevant, but since both my armies get a 0 I guess I'll pipe up;

I Loose out on #5 : more calvary than infantry, and I guess I wonder why is allot of calvary bad? My all - calvary High elf army sux as those silverhelms bounced off everyone. I loose the points here in my wood elf army because I put my mage on a Unicorn and my Noble on a Great Stag because the models looked cool? I know that the all chariot army is brutal but that is taken care of in #6.

Second thing I wonder is why #2?....what is wrong with allot of dispel dice? (not that I take over 6) and why if you are going to allow 10 casting dice are you going to only allow 6 dispel dice? Doesn't this just promote the tomb kings and Vampire Count army to take a full 10 dice knowing they will only have to compete with 6 dispel dice? (I realize that this comp sheet was written by a cheese-nugget tomb king player who will loose 90% of his games without his devastating magic phase..lol..paint that army more than 1 color (sand) you slacker)

I'm sure the master minds of fantasy have their reasons but as a ignorant part-time fantasy player I don't understand. (besides Ryan wanting to dominate the magic phase so he can whoop on me....I understand that)

Not that I take this in my wood elf army but It would stink to loose the points in #4 (more than 5 shooting units) for taking: 1 Squad of glade guard, 1 squad of glade guard scouts, 1 squad of glade riders, a lord with a HD arrow, a squad of warhawk riders and a treeman. Don't think that thats a brutal amount of shooting (and thats only 900 pts of army btw so the rest would all be non-shooty) and it scores a 0 for having 6 units that can shoot? 3 of the 4 core units for the Wood Elf army are shooters. Over 1/2 of the units (7/12) available to wood elf have bows. From what I've seen so far also is that bows kinda suck....not all of us get those wonderful poison arrows like those tomb-king players (last jab at you ryan...just for good measure to fuel your fire!)

Sorry I only use elves as examples, they are all I am familiar with (....that and how tomb king players like to make comp sheets so they and beat on me....muhahaha and you thought it was over?..never!)

Lemme know so I know what units not to paint up.

[johnboo]

mallsecurity said:

I would also Penalize Multiple Screaming Skull Catapults

They get hit by the double rare rule, though I'd edit #7 to say 2 of the same rares to be more clear.

[searsr]

Kurt Helborg is better than Karl Franz, he should probably be on the list.

I would also Penalize Multiple Screaming Skull Catapults

I am not really familiar with Kurt Helborg, I have never seen him used in any Empire list either at the store or in tournament lists online. If he is overpowered, then he will go on the list. I will have a look at him next time I am at the store.

As John says, Double catapults are hit by #7.

One army I noticed (since I play them...lol) that seems to be hit rather hard in this system is HE. 2 eagles, 2 silverhelms, 2 chariots, and this army is doomed as it cannot field 6 infantry units to counter the 6 cavalry selections. A HE army is lucky if it can field 4 infantry in a normal game. The above is bog standard "combined arms" as far as HE goes.

John, my intention is to punish all cav armies that then take a warmachine or two, like the Holy Order of the Cannonball Empire armies, or the All cav HE armies that have a bolt thrower or two. I will just change the question to better reflect this.

I Loose out on #5 : more calvary than infantry, and I guess I wonder why is allot of calvary bad? My all - calvary High elf army sux as those silverhelms bounced off everyone. I loose the points here in my wood elf army because I put my mage on a Unicorn and my Noble on a Great Stag because the models looked cool? I know that the all chariot army is brutal but that is taken care of in #6.

Chris, characters don't count as cavalry unless they are mounted in a chariot or a flying monster, so your two characters here would count as infantry. Does this still 0 your army? From what I remember of your lists, it would not.

Second thing I wonder is why #2?....what is wrong with allot of dispel dice? (not that I take over 6) and why if you are going to allow 10 casting dice are you going to only allow 6 dispel dice? Doesn't this just promote the tomb kings and Vampire Count army to take a full 10 dice knowing they will only have to compete with 6 dispel dice? (I realize that this comp sheet was written by a cheese-nugget tomb king player who will loose 90% of his games without his devastating magic phase..lol..paint that army more than 1 color (sand) you slacker)

The problem with having a lot of dispel dice is that it then forces players who want to get any result in the magic phase to go for even more power dice. If you have 7+ dispel dice, I need 12+ power dice in order to get a spell or two through reliably. I feel that the best way to encourage medium magic, is to penalize both high power dice armies, and high dispel dice armies. The other thing here is that if I punish only armies with lots of power dice and allow unlimited dispel dice, there are certain army builds, like dwarves and khorne that can have 8+ dispel dice.

Now, Tomb Kings can be separated from the above paragraph because they never miscast. However, Tomb Kings have two weaknesses that make them need to be able to use the magic phase. The first is that Tomb Kings cannot march, so that in order to be able to position units and get off charges, a Tomb King player must be able to use an incantation or two. No other army is in this position. Second is that there are many turns where 1 or more incantations will have no effect on the game. The Tomb Prince is a great example as he may only affect the unit he is with with his incantation. Generally, there is only one turn of the game where all of the Tomb King incantations must be stopped, and that is more than possible with 5 dispel dice and a single scroll.

Not that I take this in my wood elf army but It would stink to loose the points in #4 (more than 5 shooting units) for taking: 1 Squad of glade guard, 1 squad of glade guard scouts, 1 squad of glade riders, a lord with a HD arrow, a squad of warhawk riders and a treeman. Don't think that thats a brutal amount of shooting (and thats only 900 pts of army btw so the rest would all be non-shooty) and it scores a 0 for having 6 units that can shoot? 3 of the 4 core units for the Wood Elf army are shooters. Over 1/2 of the units (7/12) available to wood elf have bows. From what I've seen so far also is that bows kinda suck....not all of us get those wonderful poison arrows like those tomb-king players (last jab at you ryan...just for good measure to fuel your fire!)

The thing about this army isn't that it is game breaking, it is that the guy who takes the HODA and 4 units of glade guard + a treeman is the army that I want to stop. Most people believe that shooty armies or gunlines aren't fun to play against. The way to prevent them from showing at tournaments is to penalize them in someway.

I also agree that elven shooting in general is underpowered, as it is only str 3. What I am unsure about how to do is write a question that allows things like warhawk riders, shades, dark riders and shadow warriors to not count against shooting units, but still count things like ratling guns, skinks, jezzails, pistoliers and outriders. If you can think of a way, then let me know.

With all of the questions it is possible to make an army that isn't very effective on the tabletop that scores a 0 in comp. I am not necessarily trying to punish hard armies. My goal is to punish armies that are over the top, (Thorek), and armies that a lot of people don't like playing against, (gunlines, magic heavy, combat avoidance).

Anyway, thanks for the replies guys, keep them coming.

[MajorSoB]

OK, I have a few questions...

Is this just a general comp discussion or is this a comp list that we are gearing up for Sunday's tourney?

Regarding the special Nemesis characters, we have to play them in our armies correct? Count me in as less then thrilled if this is so for a few reasons. First some characters seem very good while others seem fair to horrible. Also it seem st to dictate your army in a few cases, like Tomb Kings where the character makes chariots troop choices. I am not a huge fan of chariots but this character seems to lead into playing alot of chariots which in turn leads into getting hosed on comp right? Am I missing something, please explain, thanks!

[searsr]

majorsob said:

OK, I have a few questions...

Is this just a general comp discussion or is this a comp list that we are gearing up for Sunday's tourney?

Regarding the special Nemesis characters, we have to play them in our armies correct? Count me in as less then thrilled if this is so for a few reasons. First some characters seem very good while others seem fair to horrible. Also it seem st to dictate your army in a few cases, like Tomb Kings where the character makes chariots troop choices. I am not a huge fan of chariots but this character seems to lead into playing alot of chariots which in turn leads into getting hosed on comp right? Am I missing something, please explain, thanks!

The main reason that I put this comp on the board is that Alex mentioned that he might use it in one of the Nemesis tournaments. If that is the case I wanted to get more input on things that I may have missed.

Regarding the nemesis characters, Alex wants to use them as a change of pace, that is his decision as the tournament organizer. The tomb king special character does not force you to take 9 chariots, which is the amount that would give you a comp of 0.

In a normal TK army, the tomb king makes chariots core, and you still don't have to take 9+ chariots, so the TK nemesis character is no different than if I choose a Tomb King to lead my army, chariots are core in both armies, and I have the choice as to whether I want to take 9+ chariots or not.

[MajorSoB]

Got it, thanks!

Regarding each character, do they have to be played as that armies general or can youtake another character in your list and nominate them as your general?

[searsr]

According to Alex, the Nemesis character is your army general, so you may not have another character with higher leadership, nor may you nominate another character with the same leadership as your general. So there are no Tomb Kings, as Tomb Kings have leadership 10 while the Prince is leadership 9.

[Ranger Dude]

Just as a suggestion for the gun line issue, you could put something in the rules regarding the strength of the shooting. From what I've seen and heard, people gripe about GUNlines, not archer heavy armies. Most bows are str 3, while most guns are 4. Just a thought.

[boldo]

Now I know why there are so few comp discussions. It seems a bit uncalled for to beat up an Ryan when he just asked for your help on this. If you have problems with comp play a thorek list 5 times in a row. If you have problems with the nemesis characters which is constructive, like there is no Khorne chaos guy, then let me know. But why bother some guy who is trying to make for better different tournaments.


As for the list I think there should be a question for does your army contain no unit without missile weapons that could have a rank bonus of +3.

Boldo

[searsr]

gavral said:

Just as a suggestion for the gun line issue, you could put something in the rules regarding the strength of the shooting. From what I've seen and heard, people gripe about GUNlines, not archer heavy armies. Most bows are str 3, while most guns are 4. Just a thought.

This is something that I have thought about, but there are 3 things that I stumble over. First is that this comp system isn't designed to knock out hard armies, (although it does knock some of them out). It is designed to try and eliminate armies that are one trick ponies. Most of the complaining about armies that is done on most boards is because of magic, shooting, all cav armies, special characters and recently the steam tank, war alter combo. Using that as a template, I then tried to make a system that penalized those armies. Second, not all str 3 shooting is the same. Skinks are strength 3, and an army composed of 5-6 units of skinks with salamander and stegadon support is not fun to play against. Third, even if I did allow a greater number of str 3 shooting units, like say 8, then you run into the possibility of some elf lists that are shooty heavy. I am not saying that those armies will do well in a tournament, but they aren't particularly fun to play against. That is the real aim of this system, to knock out armies that most people don't like to play against, regardless of their battlefield efficiency. In that case, a gunline is a gunline, regardless of the strength of the shot.

I am still trying to find a way to allow small units, like warhawk riders, shadow warriors, etc to not be counted against the shooting units. If I can do that, then it fixes the issue that Chris' list brought up.

[searsr]

boldo said:

Now I know why there are so few comp discussions. It seems a bit uncalled for to beat up an Ryan when he just asked for your help on this. If you have problems with comp play a thorek list 5 times in a row. If you have problems with the nemesis characters which is constructive, like there is no Khorne chaos guy, then let me know. But why bother some guy who is trying to make for better different tournaments.


As for the list I think there should be a question for does your army contain no unit without missile weapons that could have a rank bonus of +3.

Boldo

Ales, thanks for the support. I didn't get the impression that anyone was beating up on my idea. I think that courtney's jabs were of the joking sort, like all the crap we give him on Thursday for playing the kiddie game, (And for being so horrible at it). I do want to hear the criticisms, otherwise I won't know if there is something that I am missing.

I also forgot about the rank bonus question, I have added it.

Ryan

[johnboo]

searsr said:

8. Does your army have a maximum possible rank bonus of less than 4?

I have no idea what this is asking.


<edit out the stuff that refers to restrictions that Ryan edited out of his first post>