yet another comp checklist

[boldo]

Start with 10 pts
-1 for each character after the first 2 (assassins count as character)
-1 for each full 50pts of artillery over 100pts
-1 for each unit allowed a standard without one after the first
-1 for each flying unit\monster of US 5 or greater
-1 for each magic banner
-1 for each power dice over 8 or dispel dice over 5 which ever is greater
-1 for each model which causes terror
-1 for every 20 shooting strength over 60
-1 for every elite unit without a larger non elite unit of similiar type
-1 for every required core unit not 2 times minimum size



Shooting strength is the calculated by multiplying the strength of a missile
by the number of users of that weapon by the number of shots for each unit
and then adding up the totals for all the units. Do not count any artillery.
For example an Empire army with 9 archers, 10 handgunners, and 6
pistoliers would have a strength of 9x3
(archers)+10x4(handgunners)+6x4x2(pistoliers) or 115

For all questions only take the penalty if you have the full additional points.

An elite unit is any unit of infanty, cavalry, or missile troops with better
stats than another unit of the same type in the army with similiar equipment.
For example waywatchers are elite in the wood elf list as they have similiar
equipment to glade guard, but wardancers are not elite as there is no other
unit in the army with similiar equipment.

[Wolf Lord Snorville]

looks like it takes all the fun out of army construction.

[dwarfpower]

I don't know what you mean by -1 for each unit allowed a standard without one after the first. Also I am not sure about the -1 for every required core unit not 2 times minimum size, since that would unfairly affect certain armies. Otherwise I like this checklist.

[Krusty (zack)]

im with orville on this one...
alothough i gotta say this isnt as bad as some comp sheets ive seen...

why would i bring more than 5 or 6 spider riders in one unit?
or a block of spear saurus more than 15 or 18 strong?

do i really have a chance against any decent dark elf, high elf, or vampire counts army with out the spirit totem?

or bring a banner on throw away units such as spider riders or skinks or zombies?

just seems like having universal comp lists is impractical for some armies and a strong point for others...
ik its ridiculous and never gunna happen, but i think comp sheets should be made for each army book, not the game itself

[skyth]

So a steam tank is -5 right off the bat (Terror causer plus 300 points of artillery?)

From the looks of it, the Empire list I took tonight (Which you and Brian told me it was a perfectly fine empire list) scores a -6.

-2 Characters
-7 artillery (475 points)
-2 Magic banners
-1 terror causer
-3 shooting (score is 132)
-1 for only having two core of 2x min size.

[boldo]

Okay some clarifications: An army needs only so many required core choice. You only must have 3 in a 2000pt army so if you were planning on 2 units of 10 skinks now you take one of 20 and if you were taking 18 saurus you suck up the 24 pts to add two more. This seems very minor. Further if you have 5 core units only 3 would have to be largish. As for the standards if a unit is allowed a standard does not mean everyone takes one. This allows you to have one unit without a standard but if you take 2 units of thunderers without standards then -1. As for the needed items I have little sympathy. What do the armies you need the spirit totem score? If you get all 10 pts and they get 3 then you start up 7. If you manage to lose that game by the scoring I usually use then they get 15 for battle and 3 more. While you get 5 plus 7 more for a result of 18-12 not bad. As for the steam tank it depends how I define artillery but -5 is too much. As for the banner on every unit I am unsure how I feel about this. In most cases you will still not give up the banner is spiders seldom stand and get killed in combat so it is not relevant. This is a very effective way to hit the points denial armies which avoid banners like the plague. Further why shouldn't units have banners and how much a a penalty are you talking -2 or do you take 6 units of spiders? What does the list you played at my last tournament score Krusty?

Boldo

[skyth]

Further questions -

How are you defining artillery (IE, would Salamanders/Razordons/Stegs count?)

What is the scale here? 0-10 with 5 being average or -10 to +10 with 0 being average?

Rather than penalizing characters, I think it would be better to penalize total gifts+magic items+bloodline powers. Characters by themselves aren't bad (Except wizards, which you adress elsewhere) but characters + nasty equipment is bad.

As far as dispel/power dice, how are dispel/destroy scrolls, Slaan extra dice, Dark Elf Dagger/bonus spell, bound items, etc handled?

[skyth]

Feb 26, 2009 22:36:30 GMT -5 boldo said:

What does the list you played at my last tournament score?

The Empire list I took to the January tourney at the store scores a -1.

[johnboo]

The beast army I played at running gagg is a 1... ;D

With very little adjustment to the core (combining 2 of the 5 hound units, move 2 ungors from other herds to the 18 count herd, find points somewhere to add a few standards) it sits at a 5.

I think this doesnt cover enough, actually. How about we revisit Jasoncomp (which this was based on) ?

daboyzateam.proboards77.com/index.cgi?board=wfbtournaments&action=display&thread=905

I'll repost the original frame here:

Say you get 15 points, then items have cost. Every thing stacks so a Dogs of War giant is 4 points, Malekith is 8 points (lord, level 4, 3 magic items, mounted, terror, special character), 10 witch elves without command 3 points, but a 20 woman witch elf with command is 1. It is by unit not slot so two eagles are 4 points.

Lord 1 Point
Upgrade wizard level 1to 2, or 3to4 1 Point
magic items 1 Point each
Mounted characters (not horse) 1 Point
terror mount 1 point
special character 1 point
core, special, rare < 1.5 size (if possible) 1 point
not having full command (if possible) 1 point
special unit 1 point
rare unit 2 points
dogs of war 1 point
core that can't be bigger like chariots 1 point
war machine 1 point
non ridden terror causer 1 point

Any left over points are added to final score as a bonus.

[johnboo]

Back to the boldo's original post....I have no idea how a slaan with extra dice per spell scores, what a salamander pack counts as, and a skink/krox unit would fall under a shooting unit thanks to the javelins they carry....

[skyth]

That one, my Empire scores a -11 (26 points in the list) (The one starting with 15 points)

I'm not fond of generic 'magic items bad' or 'warmachines bad' or 'shooting bad'. Some magic items are worse than others. Same with shooting (What do you hit on?) or warmachines.

How about a discussion of what makes an army powerful? Lists can have power in the following areas:

Mobility
Cav
Fast Cav
Fliers
MSU
Skirmishers
Range of shooting (Move+shoot range)

Hitting Power
High Strength
Multiple attacks
Ignore armor save
Killing Blow
Hatred
Fear/Terror
+CR

Resilience
High Toughness
Low armor save
Ward save
Regeneration
Stubborn/Unbreakable
Immune to psychology
MSU tactics

Magic really falls in all categories depending on what it does.

If an army overloads on any one category, it tends to be powerful.

[skyth]

How about similar to this (Only a couple armies done)

Start with 10 comp points

Generic list
(Each causes -1 to comp)

Terror Causer
Flying Terror Causer
Elite without non-elite
Duplicate units/items (Include scrolls, gifts, bloodline power, etc ) (Except free items)
similar units/items (2 is -.5, 3 is -1, 4 is -1.5, etc) (All artillery and all skirmishers are similar. )
Extra units without banners
Special characters

Orcs & Goblins

Spirit Totem (-1)
Orc Shaman and Goblin shaman are duplicate items
Orc Big Boss and Goblin Big Boss are similar items
Spider riders and Wolf Riders are similar items
Goblins are Free items
Black Orcs are elites (Orc Boyz non elite)
Savage Orc Boar Boys and Boar Boys are identical items
Savage Orc Boyz and Orc Boyz are similar items
Goblin Chariot and Orc Chariot are similar items

Lizardmen

Scimitar of the sun Resplendant and maiming shield are duplicate items if on same character
The Focused Rumination (-1)
Stegadons, Engine of the Gods, Ancient Stegadons are all duplicate items (even if mounts)
Stegadons(All kinds), Razordons, and Salamanders are artillery
Temple Guard are Elite (Saurus non-elite)
Chameleon skinks elite (Core skinks are non-elite)
Terradons are elite (Core skinks are non-elite)
Non-skirmish skinks without Kroxigors are free items
Skinks with kroxigors and kroxigors are similar items

Dark Elves

Armor of Eternal Servitude (-1)
Pendant of Khaeleth (-1)
Ring of Hotek (-1)
Sacrificial dagger (-1)
Banner of Nagarythe (-1)
Standard of Hag Graef (-1)
Banner of Murder (-1)
Cauldron of Blood (-1)

Daemons of Chaos

Greater Daemon (-1)
All magic using heralds are similar units
Herald of Nurgle (-1)
All Special and Rare are elites (Core of same god are non-elite)
Flamers of Tzeentch (-1)
Slime Trail (-1)
Siren Song (-1)
Great Icon of despair (-1)
Standard of Sundering (-1)
Obsidian armor (-1)

[boldo]

What if we eliminate the artillery part entirely and just add them to the regular shooting index. then the steam tank would not be as bad a hit and the salamanders, and hellcannon would be unplayable.

You also mentioned hitting power and I was wondering if the same system used for shooting could be used elsewhere.

I also am more convinced than ever that special character just should not be allowed. There is no consistency in point cost or power, some book are rediculously over costed and others undercosted. While there are a few that are just broken. Sure we do not see these but why even allow them. The only arguement is that people like to play them so why not and just penalize them so perhaps a -1 for a special hero and -2 for a special lord.

Boldo

[skyth]

Your shooting index is way too harsh and doesn't take into account BS of the shooter.

It should probably be -1 for every 40 or 60 additional, not ever 20.

Then again, in my mind, any comp system that forces someone to do math to figure out if you take a comp hit is fail.

I really do believe, though, that if you penalize the duplications in a list (Or similar items) then you affect the powerful lists. Add in additional items (For instance, the 'can raise above starting size' bloodline power for vamps, etc) like I posted above and you have an effective system.

The caveat, though, is that it is going to have to have items specific to each army (Like I had above) and some items it won't matter if you take tons of them (things I listed as 'free' choices).

Granted, this system will still be biased (All systems are), but it is open to exactly how where the biases are and not passive-agressive about it. With work, it would be less biased than other systems.

[skyth]

As for named characters being allowed...Any character that allows a different army (The troll king in WoC for instance) probably should be allowed. It would be better off to either have a 'banned' list or a comp penalty for certain characters.

And bear in mind that some characters take comp hits by themselves (If they cause terror, etc). Plus you don't want to turn people away that heard that there is a tournament, but they brought a named character in thier list.