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Post by Krusty (zack) on Mar 8, 2009 17:46:09 GMT -5
so are we just ignoring goblins now?
usually i run 1 decent sized unit of orcs in 2k...
the rest of my ranks are taken up with night goblin units either 25 or 30 strong...
my last tournament list scores either a 1 or a 0, depending on if big uns count as elites...
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Post by johnboo on Mar 9, 2009 6:08:34 GMT -5
Not at all, take all the goblins you want.
Theres nothing wrong with a unit of 10 wolfriders with LA,Sp, Sh. I regularly play this unit myself.
Just saying o&g have it pretty easy when it comes to the 3 units 2x size in the grand scheme of things. 150pts of orcs per unit is pretty cheap.
Remember, in the past few tournaments, there really hasnt been any comp to speak of - of course everyone list wont fit very without some modification.
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Post by skyth on Mar 9, 2009 20:21:13 GMT -5
Another question - How does bonuses to casting/dispel (+1 to cast/dispel, The Slann bonus die, Dark elf level 0 spell and dagger, etc), bound spells, scrolls (These should count in the duplicate magic items instead), etc count in regards to the number of casting/dispel dice?
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boldo
Moderator 
The card carrying
Posts: 646 
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Post by boldo on Mar 10, 2009 12:06:11 GMT -5
Krusty I guess I just do not understand in order to play bigem you have to play orcs. You usually run one decent sized unit of orcs say 20. Then one unit of big'en say 20 this would be 2 of your 3 core units at 2x minimum size needed to satisfy the requirement. If one of the night goblins is 4 then satisfied otherwise -1 for that. I am unsure what you keep getting hit for on the comp list? special characters, units without banners? What I can not decide how to fix this without some more help here.
Skyth I do not know what to say. Presently shooting is 90/20 it I make it 60/40 or 90/30 you go to -3. Your list hits a fet things and could be easily better comp by switching the knight around and dropping magic banners. Yes it is a fine list but is a bit tooled and comp tends to hit this.
As for the questions if a unit of item generates dice randomly then use the rule of an average roll. If a unit or item generates dice conditionally half the maximum dice it could add rounded down. If a spell could generate dice ignore it.
As for elite units I think almost everything that is either an upgrade to a unit like biggens or rangers, or really every special or rare unit which has a correspounding core unit type, for example ranked infantry or shooters, is elite. In most case I will error on elite. So black orcs are elite but boar riders are not as there are no core orc cavalry. In dwarves rangers, longbeards, miners, slayers, ironbreakers, and hammerers, are all elite.
After some thinking the Bretonians should only be +1.
Boldo
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Post by skyth on Mar 10, 2009 15:31:05 GMT -5
Krusty I guess I just do not understand in order to play bigem you have to play orcs. Not true. You can play bigem's by themselves (Unless you mean without losing comp points) I still think you hit shooting a bit too harshly. Shooting, in general, is not as powerful as the penalty implies...This seems more of a bias of the 'right way to play'. I also think you hit magic banners too hard and too indiscriminatly...Right now there's no difference between the vamp regen banner and the Empire banner letting a unit re-roll panic tests. In my mind, there's only a few banners than neccessitate a comp hit (Regen banner, drakenhoff banner, banner of sundering, banner of -2 leadership, banner of +1d6 CR, banner of more power dice, and icon of reform before charging to name some...I'm sure there are more) This falls under the 'make certain items/abilities a comp hit rather than a blanket hit'. On to the power dice...Just to make sure I understand, Slann with the +1d6 per cast counts as 2 power dice (or 3 power dice if he has the know all spells in the lore)? Dark Elf with the dagger is 1 power dice for a level 1-2 caster and 2 for a level 3-4 caster? Also, how do bound items count? You never answered my question about the Vamp core choices that can be made bigger also. |
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Post by johnboo on Mar 10, 2009 19:15:04 GMT -5
...This seems more of a bias of the 'right way to play'. And in this, young grasshopper, you have learned the whole point of having a comp system! ;D |
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Post by skyth on Mar 10, 2009 19:36:48 GMT -5
No, the point of comp is to balance the armies...That I can live with...Basing comp purely on the raw power of the list.
When you delve into the 'right way to play', it's telling other people that they're playing 'wrong' which is divisive and bad for the hobby.
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Post by johnboo on Mar 11, 2009 9:25:48 GMT -5
I just whipped up a 1900pt Orc & goblin list i'm considering using for simcon. It clocks in at a 10, only losing points for a magic banner & a dup magic item. Im considering dropping the 2nd magic mushroom to get an 11!  Lists of less than 2000 pts fair much better on this comp system thanks to character count, only requiring 2 core at 2x, and less special & rare slots.. |
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boldo
Moderator
The card carrying
Posts: 646
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Post by boldo on Mar 11, 2009 16:46:44 GMT -5
I have always consider magic and shooting to be similar in many ways particularly when missile spells are concerned. A fireball cast on 2d6 is similar to 10 crossbowmen so to get -1 to magic is 9 dice which is 45 crossbowmen but as some of the spells will not cast or be dispelled this is really at best 30 which is -1 for shooting. Why is being blasted by shooting more fair than being blasted by magic? Shooting is more reliable! As for magical banners all magical banners make a unit better if the opponent played a similar army without the banners, reguardless of the banner, isn't it a worse army so comp should fix it? Sure some banners are worse than others but that is not a justification that banners are not powerful only a muddying of the water.
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Post by skyth on Mar 11, 2009 17:02:54 GMT -5
I have always consider magic and shooting to be similar in many ways particularly when missile spells are concerned. A fireball cast on 2d6 is similar to 10 crossbowmen so to get -1 to magic is 9 dice which is 45 crossbowmen but as some of the spells will not cast or be dispelled this is really at best 30 which is -1 for shooting. Why is being blasted by shooting more fair than being blasted by magic? Shooting is more reliable! First off, you are fond of saying that the magic missile spells are some of the weakest unless they have special stuff with them (Ignore armor save for instance). Comparing the hit potential for missile fire compared to the weakest magic is a false comparison. Especially since most shooting is move-or shoot (affected negatively by movement) whereas magic is not. What you are ignoring is that the banners have a point cost...If you play down points, you are playing a less powerful army. That's a no-brainer. However, look at what else those points could buy...An army with the imperial banner is less powerful than an army with an additional cannon (Or unit of Pistoliers, or Knights, or Swordsman block, etc) |
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Post by skyth on Mar 13, 2009 7:14:34 GMT -5
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Post by skyth on Mar 14, 2009 10:53:46 GMT -5
Okay, I ran some lists for the WPS system (Harder with other people's because of specific items being dinged...)
My Empire Stank list: 3229 (5 out of 10)
My Empire Rocket list: 3769 (6 out of 10)
My Mixed Daemon list: 1220 (2 out of 10)
My DE list: 2235 (4 out of 10)
My Slaanesh WoC: 3000 (5 out of 10)
My Mixed WoC: 600 (1 out of 10)
John's LM: 3699 (Assuming no dispel scroll on skink) (6 out of 10)
John Slaanesh Daemons:2192 (or less depending on Character gifts) (4 out of 10)
John's Beasts: 3290 (min based on composition of herds) (6 out of 10...Could be 7 depending on herd composition)
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Post by deraj on Mar 19, 2009 0:07:53 GMT -5
Well, looking at the list I ran against one of Boldo's Empire lists, I came out around 0-3 with wood elves, thanks mainly to my hatred of banners and my treeman, which is all his fault for making me take....
I don't really like the rule that your units should be double the minimum size. Should I be running around with units of 20 glade guard and.... too many dryads, whom I hate in the first place? Even my glade riders are nowhere near double, as an increase in size removes the use in bait units.
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Post by Catachan Colonel on Mar 19, 2009 6:08:03 GMT -5
it does only demand that the required core be at a min*2 size.
Thats not a lot to ask that the core of your army look like big manly fighting blocks.
this in no way removes bait units from tactics. as you can use all the core choices in your army other than the required minimum as small bait units. you got 3 units of archers/chaos marauders/empire spearmen at min *2 then you go as small as you want with the rest of the core.
Comp is not about balancing powerful forces vs other forces its about a vision of the way the game should be played. Any other comp system is just an excuse to hear that sertain things are unfairly being "picked" on because "its not really that powerful"
Seeing the minimum core choices at min*2 size isnt that demanding. infact the real question is shouldnt it be min *2.5 or min*3.
The only change i would make is that if there is some instance of a max sized core unit being taken even if it does not reach min*2 that it should count. But i dont remember many max size unit restrictions in fantasy.
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Post by skyth on Mar 19, 2009 6:38:51 GMT -5
Actually, comp should only be about power of the list. Any other version turns it into something that divides the hobby (The whole 'one right way to play and you're a bad person if you don't play my way' mindset). This is especially true if you're tying comp into Best General.
As for having the small, diverting units, having diverting units generally makes your lists more powerful (More fun generally too) so should be penalized by a comp system. Depends on the rest of the list though.
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