yet another comp checklist

[boldo]

Okay here is where I am at

start with 10pts
+2 if playing Ogres, Dwarf, Beastmen, Bretonian, Skavan, Orc and Goblin, Chaos Dwarf,
+1 if playing Tomb King, Wood Elf
-1 for each character after the first 3 with assassins and any named champions counting as characters.
-1 for special character Hero
-2 for special character Lord
-1 for each unit allowed a standard without one after the first
-1 for each flying unit\monster which could be of US 5 or greater
-1 for each magic banner
-1 for each power dice over 8 or dispel dice over 5 which ever is greater
-1 for each model which causes terror
-1 for every 20 shooting strength over 60
-1 for every elite unit without a larger non elite unit of similiar type
-1 for every required core unit not 2 times minimum size
-1 for each duplicte magic item, special unit or rare unit



Shooting strength is the calculated by multiplying the strength of a missile by the number of users of that weapon by the number of shots for each unit and then adding up the totals for all the units. For example an Empire army with 9 archers, 10 handgunners, and 6
pistoliers would have a strength of 9x3
(archers)+10x4(handgunners)+6x4x2(pistoliers) or 115

For all questions only take the penalty if you have the full additional points.

An elite unit is any unit of infanty, cavalry, or missile troops with better
stats than another unit of the same type in the army with similiar equipment.
For example waywatchers are elite in the wood elf list as they have similiar
equipment to glade guard, but wardancers are not elite as there is no other
unit in the army with similiar equipment.

Required core units are only 3 for a 2000pt aremy and 2 for a a 1-1999pt army. So the other units can be any size.

Vampire count flying units which could become larger due to invocation and summons creatures of the night also count here regardless of their starting size.

Okay what do you think now.

[skyth]

Looks like my Empire list scores a 1 with that. And I didn't even add the artillery other than the engineer's repeater pistol.

[boldo]

How does it score a 1 let me see the list results

[skyth]

start with 10pts

-1 for each character after the first 3 with assassins and any named champions counting as characters.

-1 4 Characters

-1 for each magic banner

-2 2 magic banners

-1 for each model which causes terror

-1 1 Terror causer

-1 for every 20 shooting strength over 60

-4 for shooting

10 crossbowmen (40), 10 Handgunners (40), 5 Pistoliers w/repeater (48), Pistol of Captain(4), repeater on Stank engineer (12) = 144. This doesn't count the cannon, mortar, and two guns on the STank.

-1 for every required core unit not 2 times minimum size

-1 for two of my four core not being double sized.


Okay, looks like a 1. I didn't add in the artillery strength to the shooting section also (Not sure how that works)

I figure my list should be around a 5-6...It has some teeth, but it isn't really nasty either. (Granted, to some people as soon as you add a STank, it's an automatic 0...)

Edit to fix Pistolier rating.

[skyth]

I'm also curious as to the reasoning behind giving various races bonus points.

[boldo]

3X 20 spearmen
15 archers
18 swordmasters
12 lionguard
2 eagles
2 lvl 2 mage is chariots,
BSb
for High elf scores a 9

20 spearmen with magical banner
10 archers with banner
12 swordmasters
12 lion guard
6 dragon princes
6 silver helms
eagle
Lion chariot
lord on dragon
lvl 2 mage
hero on eagle
is a 4

thorac
20 miners
15 thunderers banner
15 thunderers banner
25 longbeards
25 warriors
20 slayers
bsb rune of fear +1combat resolution
cannon
cannon
stone thrower
organ gun

Scores a 2


3x25 warriors
10 crossbowmen
10 thunderers
15 hammerers
15 slayers
cannon
organ gun
gyrocopter
dwarf lord
BSB rune of courage
Runbesmith rune of spell eating

scores a 8

This seems like it is working as it is putting these lists in the correct order. Can I see some other lists?

[johnboo]

Beast army from running gagg
12points to start

Beastlord, chariot, Black maul, chaos armor, shield, dark heart
Wargor BSB, heavy armor
shaman, L2, scroll
shaman, staff o darkoth, powerstone (-1 4th character)
4x5 chaos doggies
2x13 beastherd, champ, musician (-1 flag, -2 not 2x core)
1x17 herd, FC
20 bestigor FC, warbanner (-1 banner)
2 tzeench chariots
5 centigor, shields (-1 flag)
4 minotaurs, GW (-1 flag)
Giant (-1)
2 slaanesh spawns (-1 dup rare??? 2 for one choice)

This is a 4, maybe a 3 if the 2 for one spawn rare is a hit. With very minor adjustments and this scores very well.


Slaanesh themed daemons
Keeper L4 (-1 terror)
Herald BSB with despair icon (-1 banner)
Herald L1
2x18 daemonettes SM (-2 size)
1x10 daemonettes (-1 size)
8 furies (-1 really?)
2x5 seekers (-2 flag, -1 dup)
1x5 flesh hounds
3 fiends

clocks in as a 1.

Slann, bsb, warbanner, extra dice per spell power (-1 banner, -?? extra power dice)
Scar vet gw, jaguar charm
priest L1
3 swarms
10 skink skirmishers (-1 not 2x) (30 shooting power)
20 saurus SM
20 saurus SM, spears
18/2 skink krox, SM (54 shooting power )
4 kroxigor
5 terradons (-1) (15 shooting power)
3 salamanders (9 shooting power? -shrug) (-3 for shooting total)

Ok, this is a 4 so far...no idea about extra casting dice & bound items. Not to mention salamanders shooting power)

[skyth]

Let's see...

Arch lector (Barded warhorse, Dawn Armor, Icon of magnus, White Cloak, GW)
Level 2 wizard (Barded horse, Seal of destruction, Biting blade)
Captain on pegasus (Plate, shield, sword of might, casket)
BSB on Barded horse (Plate, Banner of sigismund)
2x20 swords w/full command
2x5 crossbow detachments
10 handgunners (Hochland champ)
5 Knights (Banner, Music)
10 IC knights (FC, Warbanner)
5 Pistoliers (outrider w/repeater)
Mortar
Cannon
STank

Yours:1, Mine: 7

Above list, remove Stank, add 25 Spear, Hellstorm

Yours: 3, Mine: 10

Tzeentch Sorc Lord (Level 4, Disc, Rending sword, Eye of Tzeentch, rod of Torment, Bloodcurdling Roar, Conjoined homonculous)
Slaanesh BSB (Barded steed, shield, Crimson armor, Phylactery)
Nurgle Sorcerer (Level 2, Chaos Steed, puppet, bronze armor)
Slaanesh sorcerer (Level 2, Chaos Steed, Chaos runesword)
3x5 Marauder horsemen (Slaanesh, shields, spears, music)
5 Nurgle Knights (FC, Festering Shroud)
5 Tzeentch Knights (FC, Warbanner)
5 Tzeentch Knights (FC, Blasted Standard)

Yours: -3 Mine: 2.5

(Everything Marked Slaanesh)
Sorce Lord (runesword, Bronze armor, Puppet, Homonculous, Chaos Steed)
Sorcerer (Enchanted shield, Warrior familiar, Chaos Steed)
BSB (Barded Steed, Crimson armor, Phylactery)
Exalted Champ (Daemonic Steed, Sword of Battle, Blashphemous amulet)
15 Warriors (Shields, FC, Rapterous standard)
5 Marauder horse (LA, Throwing spears, Flails, Music)
2x20 Marauders (FC, LA, shield)
5 Knights (FC, Warbanner)
5 Knights (FC)

Mine: 10.5 Yours: 4

20 Corsairs (FC)
Assassin (Extra handweapon, touch of death, Rune of Khaine)
10 Repeaters
20 Warriors (FC, Shields)
5 Cold one knights (FC, Ring of Hotek, Banner of Murder)
War Hydra
Repeater bolt thrower
Black Guard (FC, Banner of Hag Gref)
Dreadlord (Cold One, Cloak, Shield, Deathpiercer, Armor of eternal servitude, Pendant)
5 Cold one Knights (FC, standard of Slaughter)
BSB (Cold one, Heavy armor, shield, cloak, Sword of might, Seal of Ghrond)
level 2 sorceress (Dagger, dispel scroll)

Mine: 8 Yours: 3

More later...

[adriel]

personally I don't feel that any army should receive a blanket points score simple because of their army book. I have seen at tournaments 2 completely different levels of play comming out of the same book. And I feel giving an army 1 or 2 "free" tics on comp is an unbalanced way to go about comp. It's almost saying "well it doesn't matter how cheesy your skaven army is it will never be as bad to fight as a cheesy daemon army" or "wow that's a perfectly fair dark elf army but I need those those 40 shooting strength more to make it fair"

I also don't think that there really is nothing wrong with a comp system where getting a perfect comp score or near perfect comp score is very challenging. It makes me think of choosing between theme and power play. I also feel that so long as the comp is universal it will have an equal impact on everyone. And therefore is fair. So what if the average comp score is a 1 or a 2? It has the exact same impact if the average was a 5 or a 6. Personally or think there should be 5 or 10 general comp points you can score based on what your army looks like. And a judge would asses your army based on 1-5. For a possible 15 pts. That way everyone knows the comp expectations and the judge has leeway to knock down things that slip through the net.

[Krusty (zack)]

this is better IMO...
do big uns count as elites?

and i take it the +2 for O+G, skaven, etc. is to make up for the 'double minimum size' mark?

[johnboo]

Mar 3, 2009 14:25:21 GMT -5 Krusty (zack) said:

and i take it the +2 for O+G, skaven, etc. is to make up for the 'double minimum size' mark?

The +2 bonus is intended to make up for the weaker nature of the O&G compared to the newer books. It will allow you to either build a supposedly harder army at less of a penalty, or encourage you to take a nicer army and be points ahead of the "dirty 3" (VC,DE,DOC)

You only need 3 core units at 2x min...if you cant field 3 units of 20 orcs, you arent playing orcs right.

<edit for core count - I was thinking of something else>

[caustic]

I understand your point, but I don't feel that all the armies that gain +2 deserve it entirely. I think O+G and Beastmen should get it because they have army rules and structure that i think can severely hamper their competitiveness. Animosity? Yeah i think it does warrant a comp boost, maybe not +2 but maybe +1, but skaven or dwarfs? Are these two armies hampered in the same way as O+G or Beastmen? I dont think the two groups are hampered to the same extent.

[boldo]

Okay here is where I am at

start with 10pts
+2 if playing Ogres, Dwarf, Beastmen, Bretonian, Skavan, Orc and Goblin, Chaos Dwarf,
+1 if playing Tomb King, Wood Elf, empire or High elf, chaos Warriors
-1 for each character after the first 3 with assassins and any named champions counting as characters.
-1 for special character Hero
-2 for special character Lord
-1 for each unit allowed a standard without one after the first
-1 for each flying unit\monster which could be of US 5 or greater
-1 for each magic banner
-1 for each power dice over 8 or dispel dice over 5 which ever is greater
-1 for each model which causes terror
-1 for every 20 shooting strength over 90
-1 for every elite unit without a larger non elite unit of similiar type
-1 for every required core unit not 2 times minimum size
-1 for each duplicte magic item, special unit or rare unit



Shooting strength is the calculated by multiplying the strength of a missile by the number of users of that weapon by the number of shots for each unit and then adding up the totals for all the units. For example an Empire army with 9 archers, 10 handgunners, and 6
pistoliers would have a strength of 9x3
(archers)+10x4(handgunners)+6x4x2(pistoliers) or 115
For warmachines a canon counts as the strength of the cannon, anything that fires like a stone thrower counts as the strength of the shot times the inches of the template. Anything that uses a flame template that rolls for distances counts as strength of the shot times 3, if it places the template then it is strength times 5. Things that roll random number of shots always assume 4 was rolled for the number of shots and then muliplies this by the strength of the shots.

For all questions only take the penalty if you have the full additional points.

An elite unit is any unit of infanty, cavalry, or missile troops with better
stats than another unit of the same type in the army with similiar equipment.
For example waywatchers are elite in the wood elf list as they have similiar
equipment to glade guard, but wardancers are not elite as there is no other
unit in the army with similiar equipment.

Required core units are only 3 for a 2000pt aremy and 2 for a a 1-1999pt army. So the other units can be any size.

Vampire count flying units which could become larger due to invocation and summons creatures of the night also count here regardless of their starting size.

There will be a few magic item minus and I need a whole lsit of elite. I think the rule will be there are 4 types of units infantry with hand weapons, cavalry, skirmishers, and shooters. Each elite must be supported by a seperate unit of the same type.

After some consideration I decided that with warmachine thrown into to the shooting number then should be higher.

As for the army bonuses I dislike them but some army books are just worse than others. As this is suppose to make armies fairer then this needs to be taken into account. As Ulyses noticed at Baltimore even a fair dark elf army is a bit broken.

Boldo

[skyth]

Mine is still a 1 with that.

+1 Empire
-1 Characters
-1 Terror
-2 Banners
-1 Core non-double
-1 Elite without non-elite same size or larger
-4 shooting (I come up with 185 strength for my shooting...140 from before, add 10 for cannon, 15 for mortar, 10 for stank cannon, and 10 for stank steam gun.)

Should a Mortar be penalized more than a cannon?

Also, I don't thnk Bretonians should be on the +2 list. They have some nasty builds and abilities (Plus they almost by default overwhelm the movement phase).

In my opinion, only Orcs and Goblins and Beastmen should be on the +2 list. Everything else there should be on the +1 list.

You should add a list of items/abilities that give an automatic penalty. (For instance, Vamp regen banner, bloodline powers that allow raising over starting size, etc)

As for the vamp units that can become larger counting regardless of size...Do they count as good or do they count as bad?

duping rares should probably be a -2.

[skyth]

Here is a Daemon list...

Nurgle General herald (Palequin, level 1, Slime trail)
Nurgle Herald (Palequin, level 1, Nurgle's rot)
Slaanesh BSB herald (Level 1, siren's song, Standard of sundering)
2x20 Plaguebearers (FC)
1x20 Daemonettes (FC)
2x5 Flesh Hounds
1x5 Seekers of Slaanesh
1x6 Flamers
1 Fiend of Slaanesh

Scores an 8 (duplicate special, and magical banner)