Erie June Tourney

[bfosburg]

June 2013 Warhammer 40k Side Board Tournament Rules:
General Information:
June 15th
Game Corps, Wesleyville PA
10 dollar entry
Round one at 1

For this Tournament, players may only use 1 Force Organization Chart.

For this Tournament, Forgeworld & Games Workshop Datasheets will not be allowed.

All players must have the following to participate:

- Army List
- Rulebook
- Codex
- Any additional rules and/or FAQ’s

Army Lists:

Each player will have one main 1250pt army list.
Additionally, each player will have two side board 750pt army lists.
For each round, the player may choose which one of their two side board army lists they wish to use for that round.

Additional Rules:

- If a player has a Fortification in their army, it may only be taken in their side board. (Thus a player could have a different fortification in each side board).

If a player wishes to run an Allied Detachment, they may only be taken in their side board. (Thus a player could have a different allied detachment army in each side board. Allied matrix rules still apply).

- Players may take additional units for their main army in their side board. Remember if a unit is in the primary army, all upgrades, dedicated transports, wargear, etc… may only be purchased with the primary army points & visa versa with side board units. (Example: If you take a tactical squad in you primary army, if you wish to bring a transport for the squad, it may only be purchased with points in the primary army).

General Rules:

All players must have their army list with them. All army lists will be checked by the Tournament Organizer by the end of round #1.

If any illegal units and/or rules violations are found in a player’s list, at the minimum, the models and/or units in


violation will be removed from all subsequent play. Also, tournament points may be deducted and/or the player may be removed from the tournament.

If a player is found to have models and/or units in violation & they are removed, all of their opponents throughout the tournament will be credited with Victory Points for the unit(s).

Please make sure that all models in your army are easily identifiable to your opponent. Counts as models may be used, but your opponent must be made aware as to what the unit is.

Power Weapons – In any case where a model is armed with one or more Power Weapons, you must model the weapon to the appropriate type (sword, axe, maul, lance, etc…). Also, in your army list, it must be noted what Power Weapon type the model is equipped with.

Tyranid Players may take an Allied Detachment of Tyranids using the Standard Allied Detachment Chart.

Warlord Traits: To determine what trait your Warlord has, choose two of the three tables and roll a d6. You may select one result from either of one of the two tables you have selected.

Fortifications:

The regular terrain on the tables is fixed in position at the start of the tournament. Fortifications placed on the table may not be within 3” of another piece of terrain, except for the Aegis Defense Line. If you are unable to place your Fortification in such a fashion, it may not be deployed for that game.

If you are running any Fortification in your army, you must have the actual Fortification model or an acceptable

WYSIWYG conversion of the Fortification that is the same dimensions as the model it is representing. Also any conversions must be approved by the Tournament organizer prior to the event.

[lordnurgle]

Im in the middle of Eldar fever (my oldest army) and will be bringing them. which codex should I use for this?

[bfosburg]

New one will be in use.

[MajorSoB]

A few questions

1) Tyranids may ally a secondary detachment of Tyranids thus allowing a potential Tyranid player to have the potential ( points allowing )for 8 or 9 Tervigons, or 3 Tyrants, 4 Units of Hive Guards and/or Zoies, or 4 Heavy choices? Using this logic is it then possible to ally other armies with the same detachment type? Grey Knights with Grey Knights, Necrons with Necrons, etc.? Why or why not? I have played against Tyranids and they seem quite competitive already. If allies are the issue, why not just restrict allies?

2) Why is there a rule against fortifications, specifically if you cannot place the one you took and paid points for in your force org you are banned from using it? No where in the main rule book does it state or even elude to this. Why the ruling? Again, have you noticed an imbalance with any of the fortifications? It just seems kind of unfair that due to fixed terrain set up that is beyond a players control that they are penalized or discouraged from using part of the main rules.

Thanks for your answers

[alakard2020]

To answer the questions posted:

1. We allow Tyranids, and Tyranids only to take an allied detachment of themself due to Games Workshop giving all of the other armies access to allies except for Tyranids. We know that the Tyranids are still competitive, but this allows them to be more competitive when other armies are allowed to bring allies to increase their competitiveness.

2. For Fortifications, we put the restriction of staying 3" away for other pieces of set terrain to prevent players from gaing an advantage by blocking off their opponents with buildings that they cannot pass through. With a 3" gap it gives both players room to move units between terrain. We do not use the restriction with the Aegis Defense Line because it just counts as difficult terrain when moving over it.

We got the idea from a few other events that used it. And as a group, we feel that the ruling has been working well.

If you guys have any other question, please feel free to ask us and Fozzy or myself will be able to help.

Thanks!

[MajorSoB]

First off, thank you for your reply!

1) I see your point with Tyranids however I have not seen where the lack of 6th edition allies has hurt this army. I think we both can agree that the ally rules are one of the things that are most exploited in this edition. I would rather see an elimination of all allies before I would want to see the "bonus" that you granted the Nids. Facing a potential of 3 Hive Tyrants ( 2 now that can be winged since the detachment is a separate army ) , all of which may roll Iron Arm, along with the usual assortment of monstrous creatures, ever spawning Tervigons and whatnot does not sound like a fun day.

2) I admit that I had not thought of "the wall" concept when placing fortifications, especially with buildings like the Bastion or the mythical Fortress which I have yet to see. I also understand that the rules are clear about having placing fortifications, terrain and buildings 3" apart ( which is interesting that you ignore this with the Aegis as well ). These rules are also equally clear in that fortifications should be placed first before terrain is set up. I won't lie, I am a big proponent of player placed terrain since I see a strategic element in it and I enjoy games where this method is used. While I do not agree with pre determined fixed terrain, I also understand that is a decision you are free to make as well.

I do like your idea of a core army (1250 pts) with two interchangeable detachments (750 pts each). I think this is an interesting concept and does sound like fun.

Again thank you for your responses and best of luck with your event.

[lordnurgle]

Another great tourney. Go beef and wing!!!!!! We don't miss a tourney

[pogysnacks]

All an elimination of allies will do is promote specific armies (ie. Crons) allies make it interesting and colorful, allowing tyranids to ally themselves is bordering on cheesy but the player won't be able to afford all the big nasties anyways at lower points, if its like 3k that'd would be a silly list. Tyranids utilizing normal allying rules wouldn't bother me. Doug why would it bother you you play guard. And chaos haha. Just teasing doug, got have some good ol ribbing with the guy that taught me 40k

[MajorSoB]

Fair questions Jeremy and since I am not above the ribbing here is how I saw it:

1) The drive to Erie is a long one for me especially this time of year because my work schedule is either a 6 or 7 day work week of around 60 hours per week. Two hours of driving one way is not a good fit, even if someone else drives it doesn't leave much room for sleep. Hey I'm an old man I need a few hours of sleep before each shift now, and a sthingyful or two of Geritol as well,

2) I am enjoying 6th edition but there are some issues. Right now I think flyers and allies are two of the elements that tend to unbalance the games. Points wise flyers hit harder than nearly anything else. While I see some potential solutions through the Riptide and other Tau friend, as well as The Wraithknight, I still see flyers as tools to use to break the game. You tell me how fun a game with three doomchickens are, and you can make it worse by allying another detachment with an additional flyer, you see my point? So yeah, I think flyers are too powerful and bad for the game. I also think allies unbalance the game since they are used as a swiss army knife to plug all holes in the main force. Regardless of whether or not they are legal, they don't make a lot of sence and some would never be considered in a pre Wardian GW world. Grey Knights and Crons? Tau and Space Marines? Blood Angels and Crons? Tau and Eldar? Dark Eldar and Eldar? Dont the Eldar look at their dark cousins the same way us northerners look at those Honey Boo Boo look alike southerners? What ever happened to playing your army and working within in strengths and weaknesses?

3) Fortifications and fixed terrain. The "lazy mans" TO uses fixed terrain. Period. End of story. And before you jump all over me let me offer you the standard which all 40K is measured by, that which I speak of is Adepticon! They use player placed terrain so if they are the Golden Rule of 40K then why are there still wannabe TOs using any other method. Laziness, then you have to come up with rules to cover the placement or non placement of fortifications. When I play casually I don't care. place it how you like, or in an Apocalypse game again place it like you want, but in a competitive setting I disagree with taking one of the elements out of the game, then further penalizing people for purchasing fortifications in their army that they cannot use. Seriously, have you seen any real issues with fortifications in the games that you have played? Are your really concerned that someone might take a Fortress? If so, why? It takes 5 extra minutes to let the players set the terrain, seriously what's the problem?

4) Bugs with Bugs allies. There is no need for it. In the games where I have played against the psychic power, Iron Arm spamming bugs I havent seen anything that suggests to me that they are at a huge disadvantage based on their lack of allies. Obviously someone has a special place in his heart for bugs and thinks that allies make sense. Its his tourney and it fair for him to make this call. Again I can see the abuse that this leaves open and I am not really psyched about driving over two hours so I can face three Hive Tyrants backed up with other assorted big bugs. It's the TOs decision to include this rule, and I do respect his right to do so, but also respect my decision not to play as well. Like I said, allow me to ally IG with IG or CSM with CSM ( for 4 doomchicken fun!) and you might see my point.

Hey I am glad that their are other tourneys being run and that players are enjoying them. Variety makes this hobby better but at this point in my 40K life I am a bit more selective in what events I choose to play.

Oh and before you start in with the hypocrite slams, etc, I never said that I have not played nasty, unfun lists once. I can bring the pain and often do when I know that is what I am going to face. Apparently there is some sort of cheese limit locally and you are a bad guy if you upset that balance. When I play in an event I do it to have fun as well as to win. But honestly, as of late I have been having much more fun in casual pick up games. I would rather shoot the crap and play a 4 hour 1850 or so casual game than some timed tournament spamfest.

[sinistermind]

Jun 17, 2013 4:06:06 GMT -5 MajorSoB said:

I would rather shoot the crap and play a 4 hour 1850 or so casual game than some timed tournament spamfest.

Spamfest?

at the last tourney I was able to make it to, top 3 players were as follows:
1) Major with Ig that had 2 vendettas, 2 medusa,2 leman russ and a manticore
2) my friend garrett who although uses the unfluffy alliance of blood angels and crons had no duplicates other than 2x assualt squad in his main force of BA, and the only actually cheesy unit he had was a scythe toting surfboard lord
3) myself- with chaos and IG allies with no duplicates(although i did run my "doom chicken" I also ran a defiler and a forgefiend and only 2 oblits

I cannot remember any other spamlist other than a necron with 3 monos and a few flyers...

I do agree with your point on that there are many stupid alliances in the allies matrix and also that bugs do not require allies(although i also believe that necrons should have no allies either

also what are your thoughts on the direction of the GT? will you be participating?

[MajorSoB]

OK, I knew when I posted that someone would take what I said out of context. So let me clarify.

Have I played spam and nasty garbage lists? Absolutely I have. It is the direction that tournaments have moved in. Most of the time when I play in a competitive environment I want to have something with me that is capable of winning. Comp is dead. There is no one locally or anywhere else that has a decent system to determine comp, and now no one even tries. The last few times I played in something that included comp it turned into another category where players voted for their buddies with little regard for what armies were hard and what were fluffy. This speaks of player integrity, or lack there of, but that is a topic for another time. TOs have given up on the idea of comp, most now have no idea what a comp score would now mean anyway, especially the local GT that sees itself as a clone of the big boy events. So if your question is will I continue to go locally and play in event, of course, but I will not go to the local GT in the fall. $10 is a fair price to bring an army out for an afternoon and play three games. $70 plus to play in an event where many players bring much nastier lists than we see locally, some professionally painted, without any restrictions is not an event I am remotely interested in. When that GT was first started it was envisioned as a way to bring the local community together. Comp was something that was encouraged locally. It was a fun event. Over the past several years it has morphed into a clone of every other event in the country. Comp? Please. If it's your idea of fun to spend that much on an event where you have almost zero chance of winning ( and by the way I most often pay my son's way as well ) then by all means play. Bristol Harbor is a nice place. When I grew up we were members there. I have spent many enjoyable days there. You will enjoy the food and accommodations.

So what am I saying? Simple. I prefer playing relaxing 40K games. Most games I could care less whether I win or lose. I have no idea what my record with any of my armies are. I think the guys who post their win/lose record in their tag line are tools like some do on Dakka. That's never been what 40K has been about to me. When I started this hobby it was a way to relax and paint again. When I bought my first army I had no plans of ever playing. (Thanks Rob Aufar more manly than me) Hanging out with the guys and giving my son an outlet for fun was all I cared about, and that still holds true to this day. I prefer the "beer and pretzels" games but will I play in hardcore competitive spamfest, sure $10 seems fair ($20 when I pay for Brian) but $70 (DOUBLE IT when I pay for my son) plus gas, drinks etc where I KNOW I that my prize money will go to some out of town tool who has little love for the game and is only here to win with his net list that was painted by someone online is not something I am up for. Not now, not ever. So much for creating an event that supports the local gaming environment and staying true to the principles that the club was founded on. Again, not interested.

Back on topic.

I am glad that there are a variety of events being offered and in my mind it's OK to pick and choose what events to attend. It doesn't make you any less of a hobbyist that you make a decision to not attend every event. Life happens, some events are appealing, others not so much. I'm glad Erie is running an event and that some players had fun with it. Good job to all, seriously, no sarcasm! I liked the concept of the main and side boards and thought that was an awesome idea. I am sure it was fun. If your read my earlier posts you will also see why I didn't play. Maybe in the future, who knows. Depends on work, depends on some of the rules. Don't make the event tailored for me, that is not my point. My point is to tailor events to the community and to come up with a way to attract the most players to the hobby. And yes, I do mean locally. These are the players I see week to week. They are the ones I care about. But hey that's just my opinion, I could be wrong...

[bfosburg]

Hey guys wanted to chime in before I got too many posts behind and my thoughts were moot. We appreciate all the conversation this has generated and understand your concerns regarding Tyranids, and they are well founded. However in Erie we have two sometimes three Tyranid players and they don't have the models nor the want to run those type of lists, most of them are two maybe three tervigons at the most and one tyrant, sometimes not even flying. They also run under utilized nid units as well as the Doom, which has been working wonders for him. If we were to see abuse with the codex we would take it into consideration and decide as a group. Again your thoughts are well founded and list like that would be very bad to go against and very unfun. Luckily we don't see that happening.

As far as allies we have players who do and players who don't utilize them. Some are more "fluffy" than others. This month we saw the largest group of participants with 14, its unfortunate that a few more didn't realize you were making the trip we would have welcomed you and will do so every month. We want both communities to grow and unfortunately circumstances have kept us from rochester but it is something we as a group are working on. The GT is foremost in many of our minds as we work on lists and travel arrangements.

Moving on, next month will be a team tourney however we are working on how our format will be. Voting is taking place currently and if you wish to be included send an email to [e-mail]. He will gladly welcome any feedback you wish to add. Especially if it helps entice DaBoyz into making the trip.

I do want to put this out there, in the last 6 months alot has gone into repairing a fractured group, something I know from these forums you are all familiar with. As a group we sat down and discussed what we wanted from tournies, everything from rules to locations. This has brought us to where we are and we know we still have allot of room to grow. But 14 is a heck of a lot more than we are used to and we had 6 regulars unable to play putting us easily as a potential 20 and with Daboyz and Beef n Wings we could get even higher, something we are striving for. The Rochester crew has been doing this much longer and we are glad to be associated with all of you and value your inputs and opinions. Yes all of them. Truly.

Some of our tournies don't appeal to members of our group, there are some formats I do not like but I go, in order to grow we need to support and I hope that players that dislike the other formats come to them regardless in the same appreciation. We have some big things coming, some I've never heard of and I've been playing since 1998. We have a monster tourney where models not belonging to either player will inhabit the board and attack you, we have a major cash tourney coming if we can get the people where 1st can take home 500 cash. We are doing a mirror match in August where everyone will be facing off with the same list, models will be provided for those who need them. This has been done before but not outside a GT that I am familiar with. We want to promote all aspects of the hobby and introduce some new ones as well.

To get back on topic we have things in the works and would love for everyone in the area to feel welcome and invited to join us in making our region grow. Thank you for listening to this long winded end of the day post.

Bryan

[alakard2020]

First off, I just wanted to say thanks to everyone who showed up for the event and I hope that everyone involved had a good time. Rules for the July event will be up in the next few days, hope to see everyone there.

Second, to address a few things:

1. We understand the drive to Erie is about 2.5hrs, and coupled with working long hours, we understand if people cannot make the event. It happens to all of us. And for those who have made the trip, we appreciate the support of our group.

2. Games Workshop has written in flyers to add another aspect to the game. Yes, there may be some flyers and/or lists that can be broken if run in a gimmick way, but so far, Games Workshop has been balancing out the new codices for the most part, so I'd expect flyers to be toned down a bit or armies given ways to deal with them.

3. Games Workshop as also written in allies to add yet another dimension to the game. And as with flyers, there can be ways to make some broken combos. But so far, we've yet to see any issues with allies. And as a group, we are going to continue to support the use of the Allied Matrix.

4. We use fixed terrain, our group has always used fixed terrain at our events for years and years. It is not a "lazy man's" Tournament Organizer way of doing things. This is something that has been done by our group and no complaints have arised for us. We understand that Adepticon as well as other GT & events use player set terrain, that's great for them. If that's how they wish to run things, awesome. We as a group take ideas from other formats, not let the "Golden Rule of 40k" set the standard for us, since there is no official standard. Also, in some of our events we use player set terrain as a way to mix things up.

As for placing fortifications, we have had no complaints about the ruling & our group as all agreed on the way it is ran.

5. Tyranid Allies, as I've stated before, but since it has been brought up again, I will re-clarify:

We allow Tyranids, and Tyranids only to take an allied detachment of themself due to Games Workshop giving all of the other armies access to allies except for Tyranids. We know that the Tyranids are still competitive, but this allows them to be more competitive when other armies are allowed to bring allies to increase their competitiveness.

Our group as all agreed on this ruling, and no issues have come about it.

6. Variety, each month like Da Boyz, we run a different style of event. We want to keep players enthused about playing 40k rather than a stagnant style of tournament. Also, we encourage our group and outsiders to give us ideas for more styles of events & suggestions on events to make the experience better. If you want to pick & choose events to play in, we offer a variety.

7. None of this is meant to slam anyone or to start a trolling war. We have all played against cheesy lists, net-builds, tooled lists, etc... whatever you wish to call them. Yes, they're not fun to play against. We want everyone who makes it to our events to have a fun and enjoyable experience that leads to that person returning. If you are having more fun just playing casual pickup games, great. No one is forcing you to enter in our events.

8. Army Composition. We run 1-2 tournaments a year that have an army comp system in place. We have these events done up by our fluff players to encourage people to bring out their themed / fluff armies. As for the rest of our events, we let players run what they wish. Our group looks at it as "who are we to tell people how to run their armies and what to put in them?". If players were meant to run army lists a certain way, Games Workshop would of included rules for that, like they did on who can and cannot be allies.

Finally, to address the one thing stated: "My point is to tailor events to the community and to come up with a way to attract the most players to the hobby".

As I've stated throughout all my points, all of rulings and decisions are voted on by our group. And since we have begun to do this, our numbers have begun to grow. We are always open for constructive criticism and are open to making tweaks to our rules. But calling us out as lazy TO's and wannabe TO's makes it easy for people to just classify your points as trolling and void anything said.

We're simply doing as you said to do, tailoring events for our community. And we're extending the invitation to other communities to join us at our events.

[jay]

Jun 17, 2013 15:32:53 GMT -5 MajorSoB said:

O
So what am I saying? Simple. I prefer playing relaxing 40K games. Most games I could care less whether I win or lose. I have no idea what my record with any of my armies are. I think the guys who post their win/lose record in their tag line are tools like some do on Dakka. That's never been what 40K has been about to me. When I started this hobby it was a way to relax and paint again. When I bought my first army I had no plans of ever playing. (Thanks Rob Aufar more manly than me) Hanging out with the guys and giving my son an outlet for fun was all I cared about, and that still holds true to this day. I prefer the "beer and pretzels" games but will I play in hardcore competitive spamfest, sure $10 seems fair ($20 when I pay for Brian) but $70 (DOUBLE IT when I pay for my son) plus gas, drinks etc where I KNOW I that my prize money will go to some out of town tool who has little love for the game and is only here to win with his net list that was painted by someone online is not something I am up for. Not now, not ever. So much for creating an event that supports the local gaming environment and staying true to the principles that the club was founded on. Again, not interested.

I remember how this little group started because I was there. This was principle you talk about was to have fun. That a simple fact.

All it was a bunch of guys sitting down playing a game and having fun. It was not telling someone how to play there own army. It was about helping and having a good time. It was not putting down someone and making someone feel bad playing certain units or painting certain way. Sure you earned some respect if you painted your own stuff, we never turn anyone away because they did not.

I remember taking a rhino rush spam and wining a GT. Or Shaun taking daemonette spam to a GT and winning it. Sure when you take one of everything and win with it you earn some respect, but no one really cared. It was all about hanging out playing a game we love and having some fun.

When you tell someone how to play their own game or army it becomes no fun for them.

It is sad it come to this nonsense.

[MajorSoB]

Jun 18, 2013 12:40:41 GMT -5 jay said:

It is sad it come to this nonsense.

I couldn't agree with you more!