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Post by jay on Jul 11, 2006 19:11:22 GMT -5
I am looking to take saim hann army to Chicago gt.
I planing on adding Naadhu Fireheart from the eldar codex He is a special character mounted on a vyper with armor value of 11.
He is also a independent character that can join a guardian jetbike squads in which. His fights the same way has a dreadnought (he has a ws).
The first argument i might come accross is that his rules says that any unit that is led by Nuadhu will never fall back and cannot note be pinned.
Does this make him fearless and the squad? It does not say fearless.
The other argument is he is a vehicle. can he be picked out from the squad he is with? or do i distribute hits as normal. I am afraid i am going to get a person saying he has a armor value and so i can pick him out. level 3 over level 2.
any thoughts will help
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Post by Iron Dragon on Jul 11, 2006 19:39:02 GMT -5
does he have wounds? does he count as a monstrous creature?
if he has wounds and doesn't count as a M.C. than i'd say no. but if i remember right he is just a vyper with an upgraded profile. if he is than he would be able to be targeted by shooting as normal, except that he would not be a valid target in HTH.
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Post by jay on Jul 12, 2006 8:10:44 GMT -5
Not a MC and he does not have wounds.
He is my argument. He is independent character and part of the squad. You can not target an independent character (buy shooting) that is part of a squad.
In HTH you can pick him out, because he is an independent character.
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Post by Iron Dragon on Jul 12, 2006 8:27:34 GMT -5
If he has the I.C. rule than no, i'd say you can't target him.
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Post by Norton on Jul 12, 2006 10:16:30 GMT -5
You'll be able to target him all day long. Nothing you can do to stop it and there really is no discussion. Him having the IC special rule only allows him to join other units. I would treat this as a case of mixed armor for distributing hits in general. but being a size 3 target he can be freely picked out. Just like the avatar, just like a greater deamon.
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Post by jay on Jul 12, 2006 11:19:50 GMT -5
That is what i think i will get a lot of.
Look at this way the avatar and greater daemon are monstrous creatures.
They are not level three models.
you see where i am going.
The mixed armor for distributing hits I understand. Not a problem. He is going to be in a squad of 11 3+ armors saves. What really going to bother my opponent is when i take a bolter shot each on the vyper (armor 11) each time.
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Post by Norton on Jul 12, 2006 13:04:06 GMT -5
check again, monstrous creatures ARE size 3 though. By definition in the BBB they're counted as size 3 if they are monstrous.
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MajorSoB
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Post by MajorSoB on Jul 12, 2006 15:48:50 GMT -5
To begin, who is this Saint Norton guy and when did he decide to post on the boards? ( In other words, welcome back Mike!)
I did have a few thoughts on this subject though. First, I understand the whole IC/ vehicle/level 3 arguement and let me give a shout out to my boyz at GW for writing such clear and concise rules. Much love G-dub! The way I see it is this. Is Naadhu Fireheart an independent character? I beblive he is and should follows all the rules for IC, meaning he cannot be target (picked out seperately) if he joins a squad (unless by a vindicare assassin). On his own he can be targeted due to his size and vehicle/ level3 status just like Karamozov and the Throne of Judement can. I also would argue that he can only be targeted if he is the closest vehicle, and if not a leadership test would be in order, since he does not have any special rules like "Above all others" attached to him. As for allocating wounds sustained while in a squad, it does seem cheesy that you could assign a bolter or lasgun wound to him, but under current BBB rules, I see no reason why you would be forced to take the heavy wounds on him. As for close combat, he also should fight using IC rules, but I would see where his ability not to retreat should be transferred to the sqaud he charged or was charged with, providing he had joined the squad before CC began. Again, this will probably all be solved shortly when the new Eldar codex is release, and in GW fashion, I bet he will be eliminted. So if it were me Jay, I would play him and give him a big Chicago style sendoff!
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Iron Warrior
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Post by Iron Warrior on Jul 12, 2006 17:59:27 GMT -5
Man by that logic Absudeal Vect is a fricken MONSTER! As mike said. Size 3, regardless of your status of IC or not, you can be picked out as a target. Makes the bug players laugh a little when thier bane is used against someone else. Being big is not always a benefit. Sorry Jay. Sorry no easter eggs here, try again. Oh man, this is one of those old edition rules that was never addressed in the new rules. Eh, take a wild stab at it anything could be right. Or make something up and speak loud and sound like you know what your talking about, sometimes people believe anything they hear so long as you sound confident about it. Also throw in some random rule kinda related to it and show them proof of it in the BBB that way they think your smart and know what your talking about. *shrugs* works for tom.
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Post by jay on Jul 12, 2006 19:28:54 GMT -5
ok
What rule overrides the other:
Level 3
or
Independent character
Because they sound in direct conflict with each other. Is there a rule dealing with level 3 independent character that is not monstrous
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Iron Warrior
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Post by Iron Warrior on Jul 12, 2006 21:14:35 GMT -5
The problem is GW didnt make this game with presdence in mind.
Best way to look at it is tyranids.
Hive Tyrant and Carnifexs are size 3, Independent characters. Both can be targeted. I would only assume the same would be so for any other size 3 IC (unless other wise stated/over written or nerfed)
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Post by jay on Jul 13, 2006 6:05:17 GMT -5
no no no
Hive Tyrant and Carnifexs are not Independent characters.
I have to check the rule book about the size 3.
There are monstrous creatures that is why you can target them.
I have trying to think of IC that is size 3 that can join a squad. Just see what rules they play by.
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Sanguinary
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Post by Sanguinary on Jul 13, 2006 6:55:47 GMT -5
Remember this.... Vehicles really don't have a size. They block up to their height. Thus a LR can be seen behind a rhino. It is a rule that we don't play correctly very often.
I see no reason why an IC vehicle is any different than a IC on foot. He is still an IC and thus can only be targeted if he is THE closest target to the shooter. There are no special rules for always being able to shoot vehicles. If there is then please enlighten me.
Tyranid big ones, Avatars, Greater Demons can be targeted because of the MC status, not because they are Level 3(which models can't be since they block up to their size)
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Post by Brinan The Barbarian on Jul 13, 2006 12:05:17 GMT -5
Is level 3 blocking level 3 just house rules then?
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Iron Warrior
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Post by Iron Warrior on Jul 13, 2006 13:36:21 GMT -5
Sanguinary, please do not post false information, it only confuses people. For example look at Brian.
Page 7 BBB specifically states the size of models and what number size they are. IE Monstorus creatures AND Vehihcles ARE Size 3. And if you read the paragraph before it is pretty much says that everything is irrelevant except the size of the model when trying to see it. I dont know who you have been playing but thats the way it should be played.
A little off topic here, but MC does grant size 3, And size 3 can be targeted because its BIG! (unless blocked by another size 3). Playing by Sanguinarys interpretations, Vect, Deamon princes, Master of Raven wing and a few others IC, size 3 models have been played wrong. YOu cant target DP unless they are the closest? (Have fun with that game)
As for the tyranids not being IC's, well all I can say is this: I have heard sevreal accounts where nid players claim he is a Tyranid Monstous Creature and an IC that he gets the benefits of both.
Anyways, Size 3 vehicle, unless with a "Squadren" of vehicles he can be picked out. Just like Master of Ravenwing, just like Absudael Vect. Now you may be able to get away with closer vehilces have to be shot at first with the IC rule.
Besides, I just dont see a huge tank/skimmer whatever being obscured by foot troops even if he is an IC. Of course realism isnt in this game.
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