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Post by hyv3mynd on May 10, 2010 12:19:38 GMT -5
Yeah, now that I know battle points way outweigh a couple lost comp points, I won't worry about it. I don't like to use triplicates of anything, but I would like to have a pair of Tervigons or Trygons someday.
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Post by Krusty (zack) on May 10, 2010 13:32:48 GMT -5
i hope the blood angel craze picks up more by the next tournament...
or at least people just get over the tyranid craze for ANYthing different...
playing 3 different nid armies was pretty boring
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Post by hyv3mynd on May 10, 2010 13:59:31 GMT -5
TBH, I'm surprised there weren't more BA players. There are a lot of possibilities with that codex. People may just be waiting for more models like the Stormraven or Furioso/librarian/Death Company dreads.
I know (the other) Aaron was playing a BA list, but it was prety fluffy/compy.
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Post by chumbalaya on May 10, 2010 15:50:59 GMT -5
I'm going to start on my Flesh Tearers after 'Ard Boyz. I just need to find a good Stormraven substitute.
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MajorSoB
Moderator 
The oldest
THE GRUMPY OLD MAN!
Posts: 2,135
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Post by MajorSoB on May 10, 2010 22:48:34 GMT -5
hyv3mynd, thank you for playing and also for bringing to light comp. After the games were over, there was some discussion as to the comp scores. As Steve said, I played the nurgle list that featured two daemon princes and twin possessed vindicators. I did this as an experiment to be honest. While I was playing a nearly pure nurgle theme ( 2 oblits were all that I took outside of nurgle ) I was curious to see how I was scored and also figured correctly that even if I was docked for taking a hard list it wouldnt be enough to keep me from the top.
We did discuss alternatives to comp and here is what we can up with:
1) No comp, letting the players police themselves.- This would probably not work since it would turn into a 'ard Boyz competition quickly since the desire to win outweighs the compulsion to play nice.
2) Player scored comp.- What was discussed was after all three games you would rate your opponents from best comp to worst. This is open to chipmunking but also could give the best results too if all players were honest.
3) Continue judge based comp.-This works as well as long as you know what the judges bias is. Unlike the judges of DaBoyz which you have heard from on here, it didnt seem that duplication was viewed that negatively. From what I saw comp seemed to be scored more closely with theme rather than duplication, etc. I will respect the judges opinion here but I can say that our views differ somewhat. Personally I view comp as a handicapping device meant to help balance the weaker armies against the stronger ones. Not all people think alike.
I would be interested in some reasoned discussion on this topic, not a flame war if that is possible. Please comment and give reasons why you would favor on particular comp scoring system over another.
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Post by Krusty (zack) on May 11, 2010 0:46:51 GMT -5
maybe to continue judge based scoring, take the averages of 2 or 3 different judges to score each list?
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Post by chumbalaya on May 11, 2010 7:29:56 GMT -5
I'm all for that first one  Comp or no comp, people are going to play nice because they respect their fellow players. It's not about the list you bring, it's about the attitude you bring to the table. A poor sport is a poor sport regardless of how gimped their army gets. A poor sport can be the guy running a power list and being a jerk about or the fella with the "fluffy" list full of self-restrictions and limitations who complains about somebody trying to win a tourney and cries cheese rather than try to get better or just the guy who's overly argumentative, rules exploity or is just a thingy. I didn't run into any problems with sportsmanship in my games and I pretty much ignored comp altogether. I think the best way to get good sportsmanship is to encourage actively rather than passively (sports scores, comp, list restrictions, etc). Good sportsmanship should be a prerequisite of attendance and great sportsmanship should be rewarded. Easiest way to do that is to have judges walking around keeping an eye on things (maybe add volunteers) and getting players to stick up for themselves and not be afraid to call somebody out on being a jerk. |
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Garou24
Chapter Master
Posts: 1,530
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Post by Garou24 on May 11, 2010 8:00:22 GMT -5
Cumbalya your confusing comp and sportsmanship. A person can be the nicest player and a good fellow to chat with, but if he bring an IG leafblower list and wipes you out of he game on the bottum of turn 2.... I don't care how nice he is about slaughtering... I am still not going to have a very fun time.
Comp is there to prevent these tournaments from turning into 'ard boys. I had to work last tournament, but if they remove comp all together then I will not bother going to the next one.
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Timbo
Sergeant
Posts: 175
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Post by Timbo on May 11, 2010 10:18:10 GMT -5
I'd be in favor of using judge scored comp with clearly defined criteria (something like avoiding triples of non-troop units, not having all squads min sized, etc.). Then you could use the results of that to make the pairings for the first round. In my opinion, player judged comp ends up being wildly subjective and usually just penalizes the guy that wins. If people were in favor of player judged comp, maybe have the scoring be done before the game starts so that the outcome doesn't affect opinion.
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Post by chumbalaya on May 11, 2010 10:22:26 GMT -5
Comp and sports are really linked. They are, at their core, designed to ensure that everybody has a "fun" time. On the flip side, they are also the most subjective and divisive. What defines "fun"? See, to me, playing that Leafblower would be a good challenge and challenge defines the tournament experience for me. Having a good game, for me, is independent of whether you win or lose or what sort of list your opponent brings. My most fun game Saturday had me rolling miserably and almost getting tabled by a solid, competitive army.
If you're that concerned with winning that you won't have fun against somebody trying to compete and would prefer they cripple themselves to make it easier for you, maybe you should step back and look at what really matters. Having fun.
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Garou24
Chapter Master
Posts: 1,530
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Post by Garou24 on May 11, 2010 11:46:45 GMT -5
If you're that concerned with winning that you won't have fun against somebody trying to compete and would prefer they cripple themselves to make it easier for you, maybe you should step back and look at what really matters. Having fun. Oh wow.... just wow.. If you read my response I was talking about having fun. Most players around here prefer to run a compy or fluffy list. That's how they enjoy playing... that's how they have fun. So comp is there to try and keep the game balanced and fun for both players. I you remove comp then those that are only interested in winning ( and I am not one of those...if you had ever actually met me you would know this) will bring a hard list while most players will keep bringing their balanced list. That either makes the game unfun for those players or forces them to play harder lists that they do not feel like playing. So it makes the game not fun for most of the players. That's why we normally run comp. Sportsmanship is different than comp. I have played people with a hard list and I scored them well on sportsmanship. They were pleasent to game with and fair in their game play. Their hard list was the cause of my discomfort, but their comp score will reflect that. If they were a good sport during the game I cannot ding them on sportsmanship due to their comp. I enjoy a fair and balanced game. Thad is why I favor a Comp system. Your views may vary and that's fine. That's why we are able to swap ideas and discuss this in our threads. Just don't make remarks about myself and my desire to win by crippling my opponents. Its untrue and reflects badly on you. Try playing a game with a person first... or heck maybe even talking to them in real life before hand. |
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Post by Horst on May 11, 2010 12:08:32 GMT -5
oh god I see where this thread is going. LOCK IT NOW! LOCK IT!
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Post by chumbalaya on May 11, 2010 12:16:45 GMT -5
Hey, I calls 'em as I sees 'em. I'd be happy to be wrong about that, for sure. Apologies if I came off as too harsh. You can ding somebody on sports for their army. At least one of the criteria for good sportsmanship, at least at the Millennium tourney, had to do with list composition. I know that cost Ben 3rd place since Courtney dinged him on sports  If you remove comp, people will bring what they would anyway, at least I would. Balanced and hard lists are not mutually exclusive. A balanced list is capable of handling anything thrown at it, which I would consider one of the hallmarks of a strong army. I play balanced armies, otherwise I'm just playing Russian Roulette and hoping my counter doesn't show up across from me. |
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Soleman
Chapter Master
The "Strait Talkin"
Posts: 1,389
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Post by Soleman on May 11, 2010 12:37:31 GMT -5
If you're that concerned with winning that you won't have fun against somebody trying to compete and would prefer they cripple themselves to make it easier for you, maybe you should step back and look at what really matters. Having fun. The same could be said for those that concerned with winning that they won't step out of their comfort zone and try a new way (to them) of gaming which includes a fluffy/compy list instead of using their leafblower 'ardboyz crutch. Most of us are competitive, sure. But not so concerned with winning the games that we forget about the REST of the hobby, which includes painting, modeling and the <gasp> composition/uniqueness of lists. |
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Timbo
Sergeant
Posts: 175
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Post by Timbo on May 11, 2010 12:43:37 GMT -5
oh god I see where this thread is going. LOCK IT NOW! LOCK IT! For some reason I picture Arnold Schwarzenegger screaming this. |
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