Garou24
Chapter Master
Posts: 1,530
|
Post by Garou24 on May 11, 2010 12:53:14 GMT -5
Chumbaya I don't see how you can possibly "call them like you see them" in my case. We have never spoken nor have you ever seen me play a game or played against me. I have been respectful of the way you play. I only try and express my veiws on comp and reasons why myself and others play the way we do.
I don't recall claiming you play a hard list or a super competitive list due to our own inability to win with a balanced list or because you have to win at all costs. I don't make those unfounded accusations about you, all I ask is that you don't make them about make them about me or others.
|
|
Soleman
Chapter Master
The "Strait Talkin"
Posts: 1,389
|
Post by Soleman on May 11, 2010 13:12:32 GMT -5
oh god I see where this thread is going. LOCK IT NOW! LOCK IT! For some reason I picture Arnold Schwarzenegger screaming this. ;D Nice! No offense to Horst of course. I just thought Timbo's comment was funny. |
|
|
|
Post by Krusty (zack) on May 11, 2010 13:20:06 GMT -5
as soon as i saw the C word come up i knew this was going to happen...
drop the argument people.
already we have the same old players arguing the same old points...
the discussion wasnt based around comp vs. no comp to begin with, it was about the best way to score it (because as long as its ard boyz or jeremy is running it, every event around here will always have comp)
but again, as it always has before, it will turn from a discussion to an argument to a flame war (and has already started to), which will end with no one having a changed opinion and people getting pissed off...
eventually people who dont even play 40k anymore will get involved, and it will be the same thread-locking clusterf**k that has happened so many times before...
so drop it. we all know how everyone else feels about by now...
thats not what doug was trying to bring up, stop beating a very dead horse...
|
|
|
|
Post by skyth on May 11, 2010 17:21:03 GMT -5
You left out a couple forms of comp (Both of which are superior, in my opinion, to any form of judged comp)...
Hard comp (No score, but rather an actual restriction to the list...An army can bring a max of X meltas, Guard armies can have a max or Y Chimera hulls, etc) and Checklist comp.
With both, you know your comp score going in, so you aren't surprised by what the judge(s) or opponent(s) think are good/bad armies.
Yes, these methods have loopholes (But are modifiable that if you find the loophole, it can be closed), but so does subjective comp (I believe the description is 'Stealth Cheese'). The difference is that the objective system is open and honest about what is allowed/what score you get.
|
|
|
|
Post by travis on May 11, 2010 18:06:18 GMT -5
I am not going to pen this unending can of worms again but two things.
Checklist Comp- People just build around it.
"Hard Comp" - You are telling people what they can and can't play when the company that owns the game doesn't do this. This is fine if you have 6 player's in an event that all know each other. If your a tournament organizer and have 30+ coming from Buffalo, Syracuse and Binghampton this is not realistic. People spend hard earned money on stuff and want to play it. Then they show up to your tournament and don't get to play there stuff. Not because GW said they couldn't, but because I did.
Ever wonder why the only event GW hosts now is 'Ard Boyz? They don't want to come up with comp. They don't think they need comp. It's an impossible task to judge because it is based on someone's opinion. No one, can seriously be the judge of fair in this game, because everyone is biased in some way. This happens regardless of how much knowledge you have of the game. As much as everyone here rips into card games at least they don't have this problem. There is no way to fix this by ourselves. GW has to do a better job with it's rules and books and they won't. End of story. So instead we spend time arguing over what is busted and what isn't when they don't even think twice about what they are doing. No matter what system you come up with someone will have a problem with it. So let's just enjoy the game for what it is. An excuse to get together with people and have fun.
|
|
|
|
Post by shilekjalan on May 11, 2010 18:21:42 GMT -5
Greetings,
The whole "because the company has no restrictions makes it wrong for you to have them" is nonsense, obviously. The company has to sell their models and because they cannot sell them equally, they have to pick certain ones to emphasize. That is why the tourneys are so powered up right now. Because the company is trying to sell vehicles and things like that. Consider the financial reasons for composition or not and you will sound a lot more like you actually know what you are talking about, Travis.
This problem can be solved if people just decide to work together. As a tournament organizer, it is not your duty to shy away from critical issues like a scared squirrel, but to tackle them head on like a charging grizzly bear. You are supposed to be a judge, are you not? Well, then show that you have earned that title and show that you can solve this particular issue by working with Da Boyz and everyone else.
This issue is not impossible to solve and calling it that is just a sneaky way of being lazy and saying that you do not want to bother to deal with it. Here is one idea: Millenium for no composition and Da Boyz for composition. That way both types of people can get what they want. Really people, this situation can be worked through. Just think hard and listen to everyones viewpoint. Composition advocates and non-composition advocates can both be pleased. It is not impossible.
Courage and Honour,
Ave Imperator
|
|
|
|
Post by skyth on May 11, 2010 19:39:16 GMT -5
I am not going to pen this unending can of worms again but two things. Checklist Comp- People just build around it. Then modify the checklist for the next time. Plus people can just build around subjective judged comp also. There is a reason the term 'stealth cheese' was coined  Works pretty well in the UK and other places. It's pretty much the standard there and they have plenty of 100+ person tourneys using hard comp. Put the comp restrictions as part of the advertising for the tournament. As for the 'not allowed to play with stuff', well...Tournaments change the rules of the game regardless (I don't know where to look in the rulebook for how painting or sportsmanship affects who wins...). I'd rather an objective system where I know my score/if I can play ahead of time rather than a passive-aggressive subjective system. Especially since both systems are just as able to be manipulated. On a somewhat related note, I've been listening to Podcasts from the UK and Australia. The difference in what is considered 'bad comp' between there and here is funny. Over there, no one blinks an eye at seeing a Dragon on the table, but two cannons and you're a cheesy git. In the US, if you bring the dragon, you're a cheesy git, but no one blinks about the dual cannons. |
|
MajorSoB
Moderator 
The oldest
THE GRUMPY OLD MAN!
Posts: 2,135
|
Post by MajorSoB on May 11, 2010 23:14:49 GMT -5
Over there, no one blinks an eye at seeing a Dragon on the table, but two cannons and you're a cheesy git. In the US, if you bring the dragon, you're a cheesy git, but no one blinks about the dual cannons. Hmmm, I didn't know you could take a dragon or a cannon in 40K, guess I will have to reread my codex... ;D |
|
|
|
Post by Krusty (zack) on May 12, 2010 0:02:48 GMT -5
Over there, no one blinks an eye at seeing a Dragon on the table, but two cannons and you're a cheesy git. In the US, if you bring the dragon, you're a cheesy git, but no one blinks about the dual cannons. Hmmm, I didn't know you could take a dragon or a cannon in 40K ...ty. |
|
|
|
Post by skyth on May 12, 2010 1:07:13 GMT -5
Keep on trolling Doug...you're so good at it. Not that it was unexpected. And there are cannons and dragons in 40k. I used to take them  |
|
|
|
Post by Catachan Colonel on May 12, 2010 6:06:33 GMT -5
I can affirm what skyth says.
There are both Kannons and DRAGONs in 40k and much like in fantasy they dont go together.
As for their comp... Nobody will bat an eye at a battery of 2 Kannons. However I don't remember good comp having anything to do with DRAGON ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
|
|
Garou24
Chapter Master
Posts: 1,530
|
Post by Garou24 on May 12, 2010 8:04:32 GMT -5
Release the Krak.....er DRAGON!!!!!
|
|
|
|
Post by chumbalaya on May 12, 2010 8:36:36 GMT -5
Well, there are Ork Kannonz and Eldar Fire Dragons, do they count? ;D Garou, I'm glad to be wrong about your intentions. We really do need to meet up some time, lemme know and we can set something up. I'll bring the baseball bat if you bring the nailboard and your kicking boots Restricting things is bad for balance and bad for business. You can't really put a cap on say meltaguns because not every army has them and every army that does has them in different capacities. BS3 IG meltas aren't as useful as BS4 Marine meltas, which aren't as good as BS5 Tau fusion guns or TL meltas in a Vulkan army. Checklist comp has similar problems. IG can pretty much nail any checklist system because the army list is so diverse and good pretty much everywhere, while an older army like DE or Tau will get screwed because they don't have the sheer competitive depth that IG, SW, SM, Tyranids, and the newer books all have. Any comp system is going to be inherently biased and exploitable. If people are totally sold on having one, the best I could think up is panel reviewed comp influencing initial placement (so compy vs compy, hard vs hard for the first round) or an exhaustive checklist using factoring in the difference between comp scores in overall score or something (super compy lists beats hard list earns more than the reverse). It's far from perfect, but I think it would be doable without being needlessly restrictive. |
|
|
|
Post by Horst on May 12, 2010 8:46:00 GMT -5
yea... the guard break any comp system, because a fluffy mechanized guard regiment
1) has an assload of tanks
2) is repetitive...its the d**n guard! EVERYTHING is standard issue and has billions of similar units out there.
3) throws out ungodly amounts of firepower.
|
|
jdubb
Sergeant
oh yeah
Posts: 490
|
Post by jdubb on May 12, 2010 9:01:05 GMT -5
It doesn't really work to ding checklist comp because it doesn't work with old codexes and then advocate for no comp where old codexes tend to be weaker anyway. In a purely competitive arena, what older codexes are still tier one?
|
|
