MajorSoB
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THE GRUMPY OLD MAN!
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Post by MajorSoB on Oct 22, 2012 23:52:11 GMT -5
Check out this link bloodofkittens.com/blog/2012/10/15/tits-for-tournaments-beakycon-results-cheating-and-public-service-announcement/www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2uoJah98JEwww.awesomedice.com/KPL01703Hey, you all know my stance on tournaments by now, and if you don't you just haven't been paying enough attention. Seriously, someone tried this crap then got busted? It brings to mind so many questions like... 1) Why would someone do this? 2) Is winning a tournament REALLY that important? 3) How would the local event organizers deal with this? Would you have enough balls to zero his scores, max score all his previous opponents and then ban him from the event? From reading the article it looks like he got a "free pass" since he was "buddies" with the event organizer and was allowed to return day 2. God, I love home cooking! I think this is totally wrong. I also understand many TOs just look to keep the peace rather than do the right thing. I guess I am hoping that there is a plan in place and enough courage stored up somewhere to do the right thing if this were to arise. Hey I have always advocated having a set dice pool assigned to each table at large events. I think dice in general can create a lot of issues. Dark dice with dark pips, large dice that knock over models or require slow multiple rolls, logo dice are also particularly annoying since sometimes they are switch places (1 or 6) depending on the player, and now we have the actual use of loaded dice to add to the mess. Seriously guys this isn't funny and just further sours me on the idea of ever playing competitively with "that crowd" again. So if you take nothing from my rant, at least get a good look at what Character Builder dice look like so when you get first turn sniped at Adepticon or another event you will know if it was done fairly.
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Iron Warrior
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The Iron
Iron Within! Iron Without!
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Post by Iron Warrior on Oct 23, 2012 2:42:51 GMT -5
WTF? Cheating at any game is wrong, kinda takes the fun out of it. Whats the point of playing then?
Oh I like the part I underlined.
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Post by hyv3mynd on Oct 23, 2012 6:58:54 GMT -5
This was pretty depressing to read about on so many points.
The dice description indicates you'll notice they aren't normal just by picking them up.
The offending player used the Paris Hilton cocaine excuse "It's not mine I dunno where it came from". Yet it ended up in his hand to roll for the beginning of the game.
The offending player and the TO are both members of the same game club. Someone on their forum even defended him saying "He's a righteous dude must have been drunk".
The offending player auto-lost the current game but was allowed to continue playing in the event? WTF? Who cares is you throw off an even number? If you're running a GT level event you must have a ringer right? This event was win/loss format so have the 0-3 guys play the ringer. If I went into round 4 and found out I was playing someone who had been using loaded dice, I would be pissed and not return to that event.
Yes, it's just a game. However, GT's aren't cheap. Most people have to take off work, drive or fly, stay in a hotel, and pay for food. You could literally build an entire new army for the cost of attending an out of town GT. If you're going to run a GT, you have to realize dozens of people are dropping hundreds of dollars to attend. Allowing a cheater to continue playing is poor customer service to the paying players who expect a quality hobby experience.
In the end the players will vote with their wallets. NOVA had an illegal list win its first year and the event had continued to grow anyways. None of us went to BeakyCon and I doubt it's a priority event on any of our short lists.
I'm also all for tournament provided dice. I think it's pretty easy to put a $4 dice block in every swag bag and require players to use it. I've only been to one out-of-state event and played one opponent that picked through his dice pile every time he made a roll. I would gladly pay $4 extra to have the peace of mind and not have the worry of weighted dice effecting my gaming experience with the person across the table from me.
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sinistermind
Sergeant
Dice, the perfect example of a love/hate relationship
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Post by sinistermind on Oct 23, 2012 8:01:41 GMT -5
WOW everything from it happening to the judge/TO's punishment is just disheartening, like Aaron said alot of people shell out a good amount of money to attend a GT and the fact some people had to play him on the second day is just ridiculous, now in regards to me attending the Daboyz GT I dont spend quite as much as people who fly or drive through multiple states but even at an hour an ten minutes each way I find myself wondering if it would be better to drive a total of 4.5 hours(total for both days) or get a cheap motel room for 50-60 bucks for saturday night and I will be d**ned if someone is going to try and pull that crap in a game I'm paying to play in.
thanks Doug for the thread and the link to what these "character" dice look like I will be sure to notice if one of my GT opponents rolls a similar dice for single dice rolls and it comes up 6's or 1's
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Post by shaun on Oct 23, 2012 10:25:53 GMT -5
This is amazing. I know there has always been "concern" that this stuff may happen. So let me ask everyone, should we take some of the money from the GT and buy dice that players must use for the event?
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sinistermind
Sergeant
Dice, the perfect example of a love/hate relationship
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Post by sinistermind on Oct 23, 2012 11:25:39 GMT -5
I would indeed be in favor of standardized dice cubes in swag bags that must be used, as long as like Doug pointed out get ones where the dots are easily visable
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Post by fishboy on Oct 23, 2012 12:22:33 GMT -5
Before over reacting lets look at this from different angles:
I used to travel to north Florida for a few events every year. Dice were a real issue and they tried many things to stop it but did not put anything strong arm into place. It eventually killed the events.
I have run events and have caught someone using loaded dice. They were hard to initially spot as they were set to roll 3's and 4's. As a marine player he did not fail any saves but since 6's were not predominant he flew under the radar for a few rounds. Once discovered I confiscated his dice, his opponent got an auto win, and he was forced to buy new dice at the store. We destroyed the dice. That guy did not have a history of cheating so we were firm but did not want to crush him. In other words we gave him another chance and he has performed well since with no issues.
We dont know the history of the individual concerned here. If he has a long history then perma ban him everywhere. If this is a first then I think the punishment was not far off base. He did finally admit to the TO that he did know it was a loaded die.
I think in DaBoyz it is not that big of an issue. I played a guy last year that used a particular die to roll first turn, got a 6, then the die disapeared. I asked the judges to keep an eye on him as this screams loaded die to me. I think it would be easier to state both players have to roll the same die to see who goes first. Also at any point in the game a player can choose to share his opponents dice.
Personally I have no problem sharing dice. I can break anyones dice heheh.
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Post by hyv3mynd on Oct 23, 2012 12:48:55 GMT -5
I respectfully disagree with Joe.
Someone without a history of cheating is potentially someone with a deep history who has never been caught. By taking their dic, slapping their wrist, and letting them continue to play, you only encourage them to not get caught in the future.
I'm a fan of the " Lance Armstrong" treatment. Strip them, ban them, and make an example.
This is a voluntary hobby that people dump thousands of dollars and personal hours into. Using loaded dice is no different than doping in athletics IMO.
@ Shaun - I would personally love tournaments to provide mandatory dice. Every one of us has had a moment where we questioned a stranger's dice during a tense moment and personally I think it would help create a more relaxed gaming environment.
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Post by warmasterprimus on Oct 23, 2012 13:20:27 GMT -5
For a person caught cheating, I'd support a ban for a set amount of time. 1 year for a first offense. Lifetime after that. I know that it has come up as an issue in the fantasy community, not for loaded dice, but for playing with models not in your army list. Still blatant cheating. While you want to be strict and decisive, you also want to give the person a chance to shape up. In terms of dice provided at the event, I think it would be a good idea. I'm not into sharing dice. The last small tourney I went to, I had a cold. I didn't want to spread it around. Also, some of our dudes can be a little gross (not pointing fingers at Nogle, just saying ). Everyone having the same dice smooths out irregularities with people bringing different types of dice (chessex vs GW vs casino). I think we've all probably read that Warseer post about how different types of dice roll a disproportionate number of 1's or 6's, and having a single pool of dice would alleviate that concern. I understand that dice, especially custom ones, are expensive, but the dice last year were bad ass. I suppose my only concern would be the number you'd give out. With some units, I'm rolling 60 dice in one shot. 30 dice per person seems reasonable, with the option to buy more.
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Garou24
Chapter Master
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Post by Garou24 on Oct 23, 2012 14:13:53 GMT -5
I read about this the other day and I feel the person who was caught cheating got off very lightly. I feel a person caught cheating in a tournament like this needs to be tossed out of the entire tournament, not just sat out for a game with no score. Whether the person is a good friend or a total stranger, has been caught cheating before or not, the result should be the same. Cheating is cheating no matter who does it and why.
I like the idea people posted of tournament dice or dice in grab bags etc. I think the DaBoyz GT Tournament Organizers could buy sets of dice in 2 different colors, all from the same manufacture. Then each game table has a set of each color for the players to use. At the end of each game when players clean up the table and their minis, they put the dice back in their cubes and leave them at the table for the next set of players. Then you could save the dice for next year's tournament.
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Post by netter on Oct 23, 2012 18:12:46 GMT -5
My opinion, and only my opinion, is complicated because so much is circumstantial. I don't believe there is a universal approach that works all the time, every time. Personally, cheating on any level (dice, models in use, measurement, etc) is as low as it gets in the hobby, tournament or otherwise. And I would go further to state that someone caught cheating (deliberately) is of low character and should, at minimum, be the subject of intensive scrutiny forever. If that's too harsh they should try their luck at a casino or a horse race; they are much less forgiving. Blah, blah, rage, blah...cheaters are pathetic.
First, the event should have a clearly stated policy that includes 'judges rulings final' but briefly outlines potential outcomes for discovered cheating, with a degree of flexibility. No surprises. Things are laid out in advance. This includes anything and everything from ejection, bans, exemption from scoring/prizes, points penalties, kicks to the schnuts, etc.
Second, give the players in previous rounds (who've played the cheater already) the option to have their tournament average score applied to that game. This may be very tricky for large events, but it is better than maxing the scores because that might end up being unfair to competing players. Don't get me wrong, cheating is proper grounds for the auto-loss/max points result but its not the ideal solution.
Third, have a ringer available to fill the place of the cheater if you have them ejected. No point in the TO feeling pressured to allow the cheater to continue playing for the sake of a ringer.
In my opinion, there should be a tournament rule allowing you to use your opponents dice if you feel they are sketchy. Some people have issues with this but I am happy to let someone use my dice if I'm on a roll (God help them). Again, not a perfect solution, but it would give the dice cheats something else to think about.
netter
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MajorSoB
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Post by MajorSoB on Oct 23, 2012 19:43:08 GMT -5
I like the chatter that I generated. As stated I do like the set dice pool idea, and if dice are not given out in a swag bag, they could indeed be collected after the event from each table and reused the following year. You could supply each table for under $10, and that could be a one time investment. It is sad that something like this must be considered but I do believe it is a topic worth discussing.
Now for you Netter:
1) Your idea of judges discretion sucks. Rules should be made in advance and followed by everyone, not just the people you like. Nothing sucks worse than the feeling that someone got preferred treatment, like in this case where the TO and the cheater knew each other. Determinate punishment should be defined before this happens and applied in all cases. With flexibility, some people will still take chances since they think that their friendship with the judges might commute their sentence.
2) Giving the previous players that the cheater played anything less than max scores also sucks. First off you aren't smart enough to come up with an average to begin with, you can barely run an Excel program. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Second, and more importantly, an average works as a penalty to these previous players. The previous players may have tabled this cheater if the game was to progress fairly, instead they are hit with lost points through your calculated average due to something beyond their control. It is bad enough that they had to play a cheater, but now you are giving them less that a full reward? Wrong!
3) A ringer should have been available in all cases, especially at a large event. People get sick, life happens, and their are no guarantees that everyone will be available each round. No excuses there.
Understand that this does not reflect just on "the Florida community" but on all 40K tournament goers. I believe that this person was part of the Wrecking Crew? Is this correct? That is a club that I know has participated in Adepticon and most likely other large scale events. What I found most distasteful with this all was how lightly that it was handled. I followed Tasty Taste' link to the cheater (BeerCzar) and indeed his tag line on the forum is "They call me loaded!" obvious double meaning to referred to his ability to overindulge as well as his propensity to cheat. The bottom line is that it is not funny and a TO as well as the club that thinks cheating is should be shunned.
On one hand its just a game with little painted soldiers that was made to have fun with. I get that and that is always a thought I try not to lose sight of. The other side I also understand. People spend a lot of money to prepare and attend these events. Sacrifices are made by most players and the expectation of a fair and well monitored playing environment is mandatory.
We have all had issues in our games. I have been confused on the rules. Recently I used an illegal upgrade at a local event due to an error in Battlescribe that I didn't cross reference against my codex. Mistakes happen, we know this. This circumstance is vastly different. This was not a mistake it was done deliberately. Using an illegal gaming device like loaded dice this is not an oversight or misstep by an honest player. In this case the cheater should be dealt with in the harshest manner.
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Post by netter on Oct 23, 2012 21:12:19 GMT -5
Now for you Netter: 1) Your idea of judges discretion sucks. Rules should be made in advance and followed by everyone, not just the people you like. Nothing sucks worse than the feeling that someone got preferred treatment, like in this case where the TO and the cheater knew each other. Determinate punishment should be defined before this happens and applied in all cases. With flexibility, some people will still take chances since they think that their friendship with the judges might commute their sentence. 2) Giving the previous players that the cheater played anything less than max scores also sucks. First off you aren't smart enough to come up with an average to begin with, you can barely run an Excel program. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Second, and more importantly, an average works as a penalty to these previous players. The previous players may have tabled this cheater if the game was to progress fairly, instead they are hit with lost points through your calculated average due to something beyond their control. It is bad enough that they had to play a cheater, but now you are giving them less that a full reward? Wrong! 3) A ringer should have been available in all cases, especially at a large event. People get sick, life happens, and their are no guarantees that everyone will be available each round. No excuses there. Judges discretion has to be there. Rigid rules that don't allow for the particulars of a given circumstance can be just as unfair as discretionary rules. In any case, nothing will fully deal with a TO being friends with the cheat. It is up to the tournament players to decide if they will return that event in the future. I don't think an average is such a bad idea. The TO can't properly compensate a cheated player after the fact, no matter what he does. Obviously, that match might have been his big win. It might have been his big loss, too. Average works nicely. Yes, a ringer should always be on hand, and bigger events are usually good for this, but I have attended events that don't subscribe to that theory. netter
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Post by carlosthecraven on Oct 23, 2012 21:20:03 GMT -5
Hi
@ Shaun - honestly and sincerely, if you decide to force players to use stock dice, I would strongly reconsider attending. I am a mediocre roller at the best of times (Netter will confirm this), but nothing within TO control sours me more than having to use supplied dice. Been there, done that for a local tourney. Hated every minute of it. Spending $300-500 for a weekend that I will not enjoy isn't worth my time or money. I have no problem sharing my dice (which my opponents usually regret)
@ MajorSob - it is clear that you don't run events from your response to Netter's comments, or you entirely missed his point. His point - have explicit rules, including allowing the judge to measure out justice appropriately. Just as not every crime results in a life sentence, not every "cheat" should result in ejection. Is the use of loaded dice a serious offense? - absolutely and I agree that the punishment was far too light. However, your admitted error is cheating as well. Should that carry an equal punishment? Hardly. Judge's should have discretion - while being cognizant of the impact of their decisions.
As for the interaction of "friends" in this setting, any player that believes they can get away with cheating because their "friend" is a TO, isn't a true friend. It is disrespect and an abuse of ones trust to do this. The punishment for cheating by a friend should be twice as hard as on a stranger.
On the second point, rewarding max scores to the opponents seems like a "fair" reward, but it has unintended consequences for the rest of the field. If not detected until 3 or 4 rounds into the event, the strength of a player's schedule due to a loss in an early round is significantly less than someone undefeated. A max score award may result in the player that went toe-to-toe all the way losing out to the player that had their score altered. This is not fair, and I have two examples to share where I said no to opportunities for personal gain.
From personal experience, I have had two instances in the last two years where I had the opportunity to have my scores altered and it would have resulted in a huge upside for me. One was the Ard Boyz semi-finals (2500 in free stuff on the line) it was the final round on table one. My Orks vs IG. His battle psykers took care of three units before I finally cracked their chimera to discover he was proxying them with standard guardsmen. I could have called BS, and the judge was ready to support my call with the GW website open to psykers, but I refrained. In a game of toy soldiers I would rather earn it.
The other was following round 3 of the Adepticon Team Tournament in 2011 just as round 4 started. The judges informed me that our opponents list didn't match their submitted list. I was offered max scores for the round (some 12/34 points). I declined... and we came in second overall by 7 points. If I had accepted, I would have robbed another team of their moment of glory.
I would rather earn second place, than be handed first because of a minor cheat.
Cheers, Nate
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MajorSoB
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Post by MajorSoB on Oct 24, 2012 0:10:40 GMT -5
-Gloves off-
Netter- Indeterminate punishment casts doubt on the fairness of the event. The reason that this is so heinous is that it amounted to a slap on the wrist and his "buddies" just making a big joke of the whole thing. Go look on the forum that is linked from Blood of Kittens. You need rigid rules. Yes you can have one set for what you consider minor offenses ( and you must predefine them too!), and another set for major infractions, but if you are trying to tell me that using a loaded dice isn't a major offense you are stark raving mad and it further casts doubt in my mind on any event you are involved with if you think for one moment that this is anywhere in the realm of tolerable offenses.
Nate- You sir have just written two of the most idiotic statements that I have read to date! 1) You won't attend if you have to use standard dice? Please tell me why? If I roll the same dice as you do how is that bad for either player? Your logic fails me? Either you are OCD and need to double up on your meds or have some sort of fixation with your dice. Tell you what, roll the TO supplied dice and I am sure that they will let you bring your binky with you so that you have something nice, warm and cuddly to ease your pain. 2) FYI , I have run several event INCLUDING DABOYZ one year as well without Jay, Courtney, or Shaun, and you know what, people came, they had fun and it was a good time. I usually run a lock in event each year as well at Millennium and have been in talks to start running other events from a few store owners. Just because I don't particularly like or support the current GT environment doesn't mean I am a stranger to running events. Don't assume you know me because obviously you do not. I disagree about weighted punishment, it should be the same for everyone and in this case it should have been nothing short of ejection. Now if your own ego and bravado tells you that you wouldn't accept max scores, so be it, but they should be at least offered. While I appreciate your antidotal stories ( I could share my own as well ) the focus of this post was to draw light to the need for clear and well defined rules in case this situation does arise. There have been dice related problems in the past and I believe it is time to help correct this situation ESPECIALLY when players like you spend $300-500 for a weekend, I would think that you would support efforts to ensure fairness rather than dropping the "I'm staying home card:"
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