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Post by netter on Oct 24, 2012 5:27:24 GMT -5
@major. I don't know what to say to your responses. Your discussion 'style' (for lack of a better word) is lacking. I'm used to occasional sophistry on the forums but you devalue your own opinion with insults. It also seems as though you don't read or fully comprehend the details of a post before constructing a response. Anyway, that's the best I can say. Don't be too upset if I ignore your responses in future.
I have no issue with using presupplied dice. It's not my preference, but it's not a deal breaker. At the same time, I respect those, Carlos included, who feel otherwise; it's an opinion, not an idiotic statement.
Yes, Carlos has yes 'exciting' dice rolling results. I especially love when he brings Nightbringer to the table. I'm approximating, but in games I've witnessed (and played against him), Nightbringer has made roughly 1 in 6 of his 4+ saves. That's just a sample of Nate's rolling exploits.
netter
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Post by fishboy on Oct 24, 2012 10:22:11 GMT -5
Aaron thanks for the respect I have personally been in this situation and the way we handled it worked perfect. I do however agree that every instance can be different and any decision you make has risk. Nate I will gladly share dice with you. Like I said before...I can break anyones dice hehe.
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Post by deraj on Oct 24, 2012 12:25:28 GMT -5
The big thing about loaded dice is that.... they just don't look like normal dice. If I pull out... for example a cube of black gw dice with the white pips, then you see me pull out 1-3 more dice that are twice their size and have weird flat pips, what are you going to think? I was just googling them after reading the articles and didn't find any that you could really throw in with other sets and have it not be noticeable.
And on the side of using your own dice vs tourny dice vs shared dice... I'm a dnd player, so even as a person who has almost no superstitions, I'm moronically superstitious about my dice...
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Post by warmasterprimus on Oct 24, 2012 13:14:24 GMT -5
The specific dice that were used do have a unique look to them, but I've run into dice that look innocuous and are still loaded. If someone wants to get away with it, they can use standard GW or Chessex dice to do so.
Back when I lived in Michigan, I went to a tourney in Detroit and a dude got called out for using microwaved dice (microwaving them causes the dice to reshape slightly, thus weighting or "loading" them accordingly).
I'm not sure that I would have caught the guy. The dude that called him out worked at a casino and he presumably knew more about the subject than I. Somehow he recognized that some of this guy's dice (always just 1 color) were rolling 6's. Anyway, the TO got a bucket of water, threw the dice in and all of the dice of one color came up 6s. He wasn't using all loaded dice, but maybe 1/2 to 1/3.
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On a related note, did anyone else buy the GW limited edition dice that came out with 6th? I bought a cube and noticed that all the dice have asymmetrical air pockets in them (having clear dice does help with some of the 'loading' issues). Not sure if it affects their weighting, especially since most of the air pockets are on the 1 side.
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Post by professor on Oct 24, 2012 13:28:01 GMT -5
Netter- Indeterminate punishment casts doubt on the fairness of the event....if you think for one moment that this is anywhere in the realm of tolerable offenses. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but you are both absolutely wrong. You are also both partially correct. In the case of infractions like these you need to have set rules that are known ahead of time to prevent any perception of bias. You also need the flexibility to work within that framework as each situation will be slightly different. The judge in this case has two responsibilities: 1 - Determine Innocence/Guilt 2 - Dispense Justice Based on the determination in 1, Justice will follow appropriately in 2. I recommend in this case - minimum and maximum 'sentencing guidelines' for the judges at the event. these guidelines should be in place to appropriately mete out punishment based on 3 criteria: 1-Discourage undesirable behavior such that the consequences make the payoff undesirable 2-Reform the individual committing the act for the better of the community 3-Make whole (as much as possible) I would not immediately ban the player for life from an event - you can do that later when you have time to gather all the facts. for example, a forum tag 'they call me loaded' probably results in at least a year long ban. To make this part of the process it needs to be clear which parts of this are on site punishment and which parts will be doled out after due consideration. I would also recommend a Judge dealing with this (actually a judge in all cases) have a notebook with them to take notes. On the penalty side, I have to agree with the idea of giving them their average score for the next few games on this one. If anything, the loss has made their schedule easier and to compete for a top spot they needed their next two games to be high scoring anyway. That fulfills the making whole aspect. For discouraging that kind of behavior - I think the penalty needs to be immediate disqualification when it comes to loaded dice. I would also disqualify them from any side events and withdraw them from any raffles. I would post the DQ result on the website and publish the full investigation outlines/discussion as part of the tournament report. This acts as both a deterrent with embaressment and provides Reforming is harder - I would be inclined to contact their home gaming club if they are part of one to provide mentoring. I would also thoroughly explain why what they did was wrong, and the implications of their actions. Hopefully, this provides some additional self awareness. 1) You won't attend if you have to use standard dice? Please tell me why? If I roll the same dice as you do how is that bad for either player? You fell into a trap here. Standard dice roll significantly more 1's than other dice, at the expense of the other results and a bit more the expense of 6's. If I play a Deathwing army - I count on a 16% failure rate for armor saves. If I increase the number of 1's rolled by 50%, I get a 24% failure rate. If I play an Ork army with a KFF then I expect a 66% failure rate on saves. Assuming the 1's increase is at the cost of 4% 6's and 1% the other results (2-5) the new failure rate is 61%. A 4% raw change. From a liklihood perspective the chance for a Deathwing model to die went up 50%. The chance for an Ork to die went up 7.5%. Dice that are not statistically perfect influence armies in much different ways. A BS 5 model cares a lot more about rolling a 1 than a BS4 or 3 model (ask Aaron's Archon) Your logic fails me? Either you are OCD and need to double up on your meds... ease your pain. Okay at this point you have gone off the wagon completely - especially given how horribly not mathematically rigorous your preceding statement was, come on now. 2) FYI , I have run several event ...the focus of this post was to draw light to the need for clear and well defined rules in case this situation does arise. This I totally agree with - having a rigorous, defined rules structure to deal with these kinds of events is important. I differ on how I might do it, but the premise is the same. There have been dice related problems in the past ... I am fine with provided dice actually - so long as those dice roll pretty close to statistically true. I am guilty of buying Casino Dice - I know you dislike them - but I would prefer to make decisions based on the actual probabilities of dice rolls and a random d6 rather than some variant with excessive numbers of failures (although they are great for leadership checks)
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Iron Warrior
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Post by Iron Warrior on Oct 24, 2012 15:01:07 GMT -5
I don't know what it is but I have an issue with that statement. I'm not going to go through and check the math on it becuase i don't care to play mathhammer down to the point where I test bricks of dice. It's not that important to me. But...heres what bothers me, the chance to roll a 1 on a d6 is a 1/6 chance...thats it. Assuming its not weighted or some sort of cheating die. Its random, welcome to dice games. Telling me that one set of dice will roll diffrent from another set, assuming again they are not loaded or set up to cheat, is rather well...I will use the word Odd, to be nice. Each die has a 1/6th chance to roll a one. Another thing that I find a little off by that statement is that it sounds like you as well refuse to use standardized dice becuase somehow your dice roll better according to your math. Well now I find this to be a little fishy and would question your dice now. To me that would imply that your dice are somehow manufactured to give you less ones. That would also imply that your dice are somehow loaded to an extent. That is of course assuming your math is correct and you are comparing a standardized dice set to your own. All in all if both players are using the same set of dice ((Even assuming with the higher percentage of ones rolled from standardized dice.)) the game should still be on an even playing field where the both of you roll about the same number of ones. Considering 1's always fail unless rolling for leadership and such. Claiming that your dice are better for Deathwing than for imperial guard (we will say) becuase they roll less ones, tends to make me think something is off about your dice. A good example why standardized dice is a good idea, I would have piece of mind when playing agianst you now and I could not claim "It was your dice that wont the game and not your tactics."
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Post by professor on Oct 24, 2012 16:03:52 GMT -5
I don't know what it is but I have an issue with that statement.... But...heres what bothers me, the chance to roll a 1 on a d6 is a 1/6 chance...thats it. Assuming its not weighted or some sort of cheating die. Its random, welcome to dice games. Telling me that one set of dice will roll diffrent from another set, assuming again they are not loaded or set up to cheat, is rather well...I will use the word Odd, to be nice. Each die has a 1/6th chance to roll a one. Prepare to have your mind blown then: www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/That's_How_I_Roll_-_A_Scientific_Analysis_of_Dice Another thing that I find a little off by that statement is that it sounds like you as well refuse to use standardized dice becuase somehow your dice roll better according to your math. My dice roll almost statistically perfectly - I use Casino Dice endorsed by the Las Vegas Gaming Commission. They do not roll better than a 0.1667 chance for each results - they roll EXACTLY that result. Well now I find this to be a little fishy and would question your dice now. To me that would imply that your dice are somehow manufactured to give you less ones. They are manufactured to be actually perfect (or close to it) statistically. The Chessex dice and GW dice are manufactured to be biased towards 1's and away from 6's (although in some cases they might be biased towards 2's,3's 4's or even 6's depending on invisible air pockets because they are solid colored) That would also imply that your dice are somehow loaded to an extent. That is of course assuming your math is correct and you are comparing a standardized dice set to your own. See above, this is completely wrong. All in all if both players are using the same set of dice ((Even assuming with the higher percentage of ones rolled from standardized dice.)) the game should still be on an even playing field where the both of you roll about the same number of ones. Did you actually read the mathematics or just let your eyes skip past it. Rolling more 1's is MORE detrimental to some armies. Rolling less 6's is MUCH MORE detrimental to others. An army that relies on 6's to rend (say my Slaanesh Daemons, this is why I started looking into this) suffers horribly when the real probability to roll a 6 on a dice is not 1/6 but say 1/10. In 5th edition that means I used to get 1 damage result per 100 attacks on a moving vehicle, not per 36. To claim that it does not matter is ridiculous - I can give you numerous examples where uneven dice rolling makes a huge difference. The Vehicle Damage Chart is another. Considering 1's always fail unless rolling for leadership and such. Claiming that your dice are better for Deathwing than for imperial guard (we will say) becuase they roll less ones, tends to make me think something is off about your dice. Nothing is off about my dice - my dice are fine. Everyone else though, might be playing with crappy dice. By the way, you also auto pass characteristic tests with a 1. A good example why standardized dice is a good idea, I would have piece of mind when playing agianst you now and I could not claim "It was your dice that wont the game and not your tactics." You will have piece of mind that the casino dice I am using are not allowing me to do any funny business, you are correct. You will have peace of mind that they are see through so there are no air bubbles, that they are uniform in pattern with square edges and large enough to produce truly random results. If you want to roll them, be my guest as well. Not all dice are 'bad' some people get sets that are the opposite and tend to roll more 6's. In some cases I see people take dice they think are lucky and use them for special rolls - those are probably weighted even though they do not know it. I would actually be more comfortable if you would get some certified dice. By the looks of it, your leadership tests (which Daemons do not take, another advantage of dice that roll 1's for one army and not another), seem to pass a bit more than they should. Especially before implying using actual casino dice is somehow cheating - while ignoring the mathematics or even basic research required for a useful discussion.
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Post by hyv3mynd on Oct 24, 2012 16:46:26 GMT -5
So weird to see a wall of text without my name attached or attacked in it wowowaweewow.
"The Chessex dice and GW dice are manufactured to be biased towards 1's and away from 6's (although in some cases they might be biased towards 2's,3's 4's or even 6's depending on invisible air pockets because they are solid colored)"
I actually found this to be true when I purchased a chessex dice block to match my tyranid army back in the day. One of the 36 had a large air bubble under the pip for the "1" that was so large it wasn't painted over. I noticed because every time that "1" came up, it looked like a bullseye with a white pip and a black bubble. That one die also rolled a "1" about 33% of the time. I threw out that whole block.
I would love to get my hands on some "Las Vegas Certified" casino dice but I've been too lazy. They're clear, easy to read, and the square edges prevent them from bouncing all over and off the table.
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Iron Warrior
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Post by Iron Warrior on Oct 24, 2012 18:16:52 GMT -5
You can claim all the math you want but unless we are playing with the same set of dice and your claims that your dice are 'perfect' and roll less ones I dont think I would be comforatable playing with you and your dice unless I could also use your dice as well or you agree to use mine or a standardized set.
This is just a good example about why there should be a standard set, too many arguements about whos dice are better at rolling what. You just sound to me like someone thats trying to squeeze out some edge on something that reeks of powergaming and mathhammer two things I dislike. *shrugs* Take it for what its worth.
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Post by professor on Oct 24, 2012 18:40:58 GMT -5
You can claim all the math you want... This is the standard argument from people who do not care to think about math (which the game is based on by the way). In fact the entire system depends on a uniform discrete random number generator between 1 and 6 inclusive. If you vary that AT ALL it completely throws off the game balance. I also have yet to see a well reasoned argument against the claim 'non-uniform dice effect all armies, so it does not matter.' I showed you why it does, I gave specific examples of iniquities across units. I think we can agree then, that playing with dice that are not uniform, biases the game in a way that is unfair to some players. Ergo, (as I said) if you want to force the same dice set on people those dice must be statistically uniform in their rolling - or at least uniform across the entire dice pool with random dice selection for rolling. ...but unless we are playing with the same set of dice and your claims that your dice are 'perfect' and roll less ones I dont think I would be comforatable playing with you and your dice unless I could also use your dice as well or you agree to use mine or a standardized set. I would gladly let an opponent use my dice if they were wanted to use 'fair dice' once. After that, I think it is only reasonable to expect my opponent to drop the 40 bucks on 20 Casino dice - really not a bad investment when you consider all that goes into this hobby. This is just a good example about why there should be a standard set, too many arguements about whos dice are better at rolling what. There is no argument on this one - my dice roll a uniform dicrete distribution. I have no idea what yours do - they may roll more 6's, statistical evidence suggests they roll more 1's if they are Chessex or GW. Either way, those dice are loaded - not mine. You just sound to me like someone thats trying to squeeze out some edge on something that reeks of powergaming and mathhammer two things I dislike. *shrugs* Take it for what its worth. When someone is unwilling to take the time to analyze, consider and provide a rigorous argument to support their position (which by the way has absolutely no basis in fact, or supporting empirical, evidence), then I have a hard time taking anything they say with any value. If you want to discus tournament gameplay and requirements with any kind of authority - then maybe you need to delve into mathematics - unwillingness to do so makes it atrociously difficult to form a cogent argument. I am sorry that I want to play the game as it was intended, I suppose that following the rules is powergaming to get some kind of edge. At face value the accusation is absurd, it suggests a duality such that I powergame dice but not lists. And when I make a point, I do not passive aggressively disavow it in the same breath.
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Post by Iron Warrior on Oct 24, 2012 19:53:18 GMT -5
Sure, chop up my post and take it out of context if you desire. To sum up what I said so that it is clear to you. I would feel more comforatable playing with one set of dice when I meet you in a tournament where I pay to play. Probability is not and exact math, you can't garuntee that 1 in 6 times a one will be rolled. I bet if we sit down (And no I would not want to do this) and rolled your die a hundred times that we will find that it would not roll exactly as you assume it would and I would be willing to wager that if we calculated what the 101st roll would have to be, I still bet there would be a 1/6th chance of that number coming up what it 'should' be. I've heard over and over again in game "I should have save at least half of those...well yeah you should have BUT you didn't. Thats how chance works. While being bored I've actualy just fiddled around with dice that happen to benear by and roll a d6 six times and get a 5,5,5,4,6,3. Statisticaly speaking I should have rolled one of each, correct? A 1,2,3,4,5,6. Same dice diffrent occasion. 1,1,2,3,4,3. Chance...nothing is garunteed. You can can claim your dice to be perfect or what not all you like. but they way you are coming across is that you have dice that would give you an unfair advantage over someone what would be using 'standardized dice'. The claim that yours roll perfectly all the time where others dont means your gaming the system for better result. Is it wrong? No I suppose not, I wouldnt personally do it becuase I choose not to play like that. Ya know to each thier own. But all Im saying here is I wouldnt nessasarily want to play against someone with a claim that thier dice are perfectly balanced and roll better than anyone elses. Just seems a bit bold to me. I would then request that my oppenent and I use the same set of dice and probabaly not use thier dice but perhpas ones offered by the tournement. Like I said I just find it fishy.... No math invovled, just an opinion and feeling. Kudos to you and your perfect dice and good luck to you in your tournaments. I wish you the best...just not against me.
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Post by MajorSoB on Oct 24, 2012 21:19:36 GMT -5
WOW, look at the wall of text, and my name isn't associated with most of it? WTF???
Let's begin...
So I pissed you off Ben? Oh well, I guess expressing my opinion and pointing out that an unwillingness to plan and determine punishment before it occurs pisses you off? It isn't like I asked you to run a painting league and lead by example or even organize games. Its not like I am requiring you to actually assemble and paint the models you play with. I could go on, but won't. So you aren't going to comment on my posts anymore, yeah that will last right up until you have a few drinks again...
Back to you professor. So are you going to give me a class on Crimes and Punishment? Have I ever shared with you that one of the two bachelor degrees I possess is in Criminal Justice? I think I know the difference between determinate and indeterminate sentencing and the consequences associated with both. The biggest risk with indeterminate sentencing is that it raises the specter of fairness and favoritism. Did you play in DaBoyz last year or the year prior? One of the biggest failures associated with that tournament was the indeterminate comp system used one year and the 30 "buddy" points that were randomly distributed the following year. Go troll Dakka and look at the posts there. This was one of the biggest complaints. I understand Shaun is doing his best this year to right the wrongs of the past. Follow me, let's say someone is caught cheating. Without preset rules what do you do? What if its a local guy? You know that short of execution that whatever the punishment it will be viewed as less that adequate "because he was a local guy". Let's say one of the big tourney guys is caught. Friendships exist and some of the judges for Daboyz would be back off "because they are a good guy and we hang out with them at Adepticon, etc...". Really making a rule against instruments of deception is not as hard as you would like to make it. Read this:
"Any player caught using an instrument of deception used to gain and unfair advantage will immediately be expelled from the event. He will not be allowed back and barred from any further participation in future events. His name will be posted with the results. Instruments of deception are defined as rulers that are too long or short, dice that have been altered or manufactured to roll less than random results, (as well as anything the committee can add to the list). Previous opponents will be given the option of having there scores increased to the maximum to reflect this. If you have any questions on the accuracy of you equipment please contact a judge before the start of the event."
So what is so hard about that? You could also do this:
"If an illegal list is found in the event the player will be allowed to correct it but previous opponents will be given the option of having there scores increased to the maximum to reflect this."
There is the delineation between major and minor offenses. The issue with both is mens era, latin for "guilty mind". Bringing a device used to deceive your opponent clearly point to criminal intent. Miscalculating a list is not as clear cut.
The reason that clear and determinate punishment needs to be communicated prior to the event is two fold. First is sets a standard for everyone, the players you like and those who you are not as familiar with, and second, it communicate your feelings of zero tolerance and what you as organizers believe to be paramount.
Now the issue of dice...
So are you trying to tell me that the reason that you prefer Casino dice is based on their better than average ( or at least the standard Chessex dice) ability to roll higher numbers? Are you seriously going to that extreme to win a game? That makes you a tool, just like it would make me a tool if I bought a Stanley tape over the Dollar store tape or GW tape because it was 1/8" longer but still certified as accurate. Thanks for sharing this morsel and the next time we play I will indeed be rolling your dice and slowing the game down to a grind. Knowing that maybe I can plan on only three turns since I know that it will have an affect on the game, and that my friend would also make me a tool as well. Arguments that center around a particular brand of dice rolling better than expected do nothing but reenforce the need for a standard dice pool in major tournament environments. And please don't insult me with your statistical bs. I know the numbers. I can do the math. While I come off as an arrogant prick most days, what you fail to realize is that I am a highly intelligent arrogant prick that can outthink you on any given day. It's a fracking hobby and I choose to put my brain on hold when playing and have fun. If I wanted to do math 24/7 I would have gone to MIT and would be a member of some famous think tank, or worse maybe Wall Street or our government, where I could really manipulate numbers to my advantage!
Oh and before I go, I think the question of how the Character Builders were disguised is pretty simple when you think about it. The player who used the loaded dice produced them from his Grab Bag o' Dice, which was a mismatched conglomeration of dice similar to Travis' Jar o" Dice next to the register. That was why he claimed the "Derp, I didn't know" defense stating he reached in the jar and just grabbed a handful. How was he to know that a loaded dice was there, and it was just cosmic coincidence that he rolled that exact die when determining who would go first. Yeah right, I believe you, and OJ of course didnt turn Ron Goldman and his ex wife Nicole Brown into Pez dispensers either!!!
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Post by skyth on Oct 24, 2012 22:10:44 GMT -5
Sounds like someone who is complaining that the red sticks that come (came?) with the game should be used instead of a tape measure. After all, the person with a tape measure has an advantage because it is accurate, not measuring things shorter than they actually are like the red sticks do.
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MajorSoB
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Post by MajorSoB on Oct 24, 2012 22:44:07 GMT -5
Did someone just fart....oh it was Skyth speaking. Glad you could put down your Bella Sara cards for a minute and decided to join the discussion! OK, so I have a problem with the whippy sticks too? Thanks for helping me remember all my issues, gosh I hate getting old and not remembering all the crap that I have issues with. Just to be clear. my only issue with the whippy sticks is that GW has the gall to charge over $100 for a starter box set and include them instead of a proper measuring tape. I also don't like getting hit with them either. I think the only person who really likes them is Matt. I have played games with people who use them. I saw a game played in Toronto once where a guy had precut wooden dowels labels with each length that he used in fantasy for movement. He invited his opponent to check the accuracy by measuring them before the game started. I don't see an issue at all with that. As a reminder my annoying pattern bald friend, the topic here was loaded dice and the consequences that should incur from their use in a tournament, not "What Doug likes". If you want to start that thread go right ahead, put me down for an order of strippers, especially the ones paying their way through college, cause that is what I really like. Measuring devices, I don't care so much, just as long as they are accurate. Remember Skyth, fantasy and Bella Sara are both wonderful games!
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Post by carlosthecraven on Oct 24, 2012 22:49:04 GMT -5
Hi
@ Shaun - the exception to my objection would be Casino Dice as mentioned by Professor. Certified to roll average over time is acceptible (and an upgrade from any die cube I have ever used!). However, given that you should, in my opinion, probably provide 30 dice per player, another $60 in cost per player is likely prohibitive. Since I normally play orks, attempting to play at speed with any fewer dice would prohibitively slow down the game. Perhaps you could consider such a supply an investment and ask that the dice be left behind after the event. *shrug* - not sure if this is worth it for such a rare occurance, but that is your call.
@ Major SoB: 1. For clarity, if you think Ben = Netter, then you are mistaken. He is a Canuck, solid individual, contributor to the hobby community, and someone I am proud to call a friend.
2. I find your general approach to posting on forums fairly offensive. Nothing I will lose sleep over, but offensive. If your goal is to piss people off, get banded, and then start your own blog exposing your "truths" you are well on your way to being Stelek 2.0. And like Stelek, I imagine the real you and the internet persona are quite different. However, amidst Stelek's ramblings, there are nuggets of information that are useful to understanding a particular approach to playing the game (MSU up until about a month ago where MSU fell down at Nova). Having lurked through some of your many inane arguments on this forum, I am having trouble discerning what "truths" or value you will be bringing to the community.
Specifically, I find it offensive that you need to identify my comments as idiotic because they are opposed to yours. Shaun solicited for thoughts on supplied dice. I strongly dislike it to the point where it has an impact on my decision-making on a multi-day event that I rank 1-2 with Adepticon on my travel wargaming schedule. Given the events relative importance to my hobby year, and the respect I have for Jay, Shaun and the other members of Da Boyz I know, I decided to throw in my honest 2 cents. Thank you slapping me for supplying my opinion. Well done. *slow clap of distain*
If I took your approach, I might have asserted that anyone who gets worked up enough about this relatively rare occurance, which we agree is deplorable within the context of gaming and deserving of harsh punishment, to enforce something on honest people that is not to their liking is going overboard on what are isolated incidents. Moreover, you are someone who does not attend major events because they aren't conforming to your narrow set of criteria for what constitutes Warhammer 40,000. I could have perhaps commented that you are OCD or off your meds or an anally retentive douche, but I choose not to. Personal attacks take away from the quality of discussion, do anything but garner respect of other posters, but can provide amusement to other readers.
Like Netter, expect your future posts to be ignored by me. However, if you want to chat about this in person, sans internet persona, I would be happy to do so over a pint.
Cheers, Nate
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