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Post by skyth on Jan 23, 2007 19:57:58 GMT -5
I just find it troubling that it seems anyone with a different (and valid) rules interpretation here is automatically labeled a 'rules-lawyer' and a bad person.
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MajorSoB
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Post by MajorSoB on Jan 23, 2007 20:22:48 GMT -5
I just find it troubling that it seems anyone with a different (and valid) rules interpretation here is automatically labeled a 'rules-lawyer' and a bad person. Excuse me but WTF??? YOU asked us how WE played here and we gave you answers to the questions you asked. I am sorry if they were not the responses that you wished for but they were the responses that you got, period. We did not pull the rules that we play by out of our collective A$$ES, instead we have discussed them and come up with reasoned interpretations. One thing we hate is rules lawyers, that is people who try to twist unclear rules to their own perversion gaining unfair advantage in a game situation. We are not bad guys here but speaking for the group, we do hate rules lawyers. Again I stand by my original statement that your questions are concerning in that they all seem to focus on taking unclear rules and gain some sort of advantage exploiting them. I enjoy playing both Warhammer and 40K. I have had alot of fun playing with a wide variety of people in various pickup games and tournaments. Overall gaming is fun, but the exception occurs when you have a game against some rules lawyer who bends and stretches the rules to their advantage. I have not made any assumptions about what type of player you might be, again I invite you to play sometime with us as a group.
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Post by skyth on Jan 23, 2007 20:32:01 GMT -5
I just asking how you play when I know there are different interpretations around. An honest answer was what I expected, along the lines of 'we play this way', not an answer 'we play this way and anyone who doesn't play the way we do is a bad person and deserves physical violence towards them'.
In my experience online, alot of the time, a 'rules lawyer' is simply someone with a different interpretation of the rules than you do. Instead of attacking the argument, the person making the argument is attacked instead.
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Post by Brinan The Barbarian on Jan 23, 2007 20:51:14 GMT -5
I'm just going to step in and say...
I don't agree with stuff like your 12 inch reserves crap. You asked how we played, and we told you, were not going to change just because someone from out of town wants to play by their rules and faqs off of the web comic.
Something that is big and bad... AND SLOW such as your carnifex should have some drawbacks, such as escalation. Just because a carnifex is slow, doesnt mean that they should be able to come in 12 inches forward, GET OVER IT!!! Lets put this in a real life situation. If people are coming fro their bases to battle, they will obviousally come from the base, which is where the rest of the army is coming from, WHICH IS THE BACK!!!
I hate to sound like a thingy.
Have a good day!
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MajorSoB
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Post by MajorSoB on Jan 23, 2007 20:51:17 GMT -5
You my friend will never make it here unless you develop a thicker skin. In case you haven't noticed we all poke fun at each other quite often, and the threat of a knee to the nads in just that. Again we have considered other interpretations, but what works best in our group in a friendly style of play that we have developed over time. In our group, power gaming is not encouraged and neither is rules lawyering. Most rules are very clear if take the time to read them and understand them. Read the words as they are written, not what you wished they would have said. When that fails (rarely) use logic and you brain as to what the spirit of the rule was intended to be. Playing by the rules does make someone fun to play with, but cheater are no fun to play with I am sure you would agree. Playing with someone who bends rules in my experience is as bad as someone who measures with a rubber ruler, roles too many dice, fails to remove the right amount of models for casualties, deploys improperly...etc. Winning and losing games is only a part of this hobby. Painting, playing, exchanging ideas (and insults) are all part of a fun hobby that we as a group enjoy.
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Post by Norton on Jan 23, 2007 21:24:10 GMT -5
Woah, Brian I know we've said this before but shut up, It's one thing to actually be 14 and another thing entirely to act it.
Lets not yell at the new guy quite so much till he actually gets up here and deserves it. ;D
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MajorSoB
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Post by MajorSoB on Jan 23, 2007 21:25:53 GMT -5
Umm, Brian is only 13. He gets his birthday, and appropriate beating, on the 26th of next month.
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Post by evilerik on Jan 23, 2007 22:15:53 GMT -5
Umm, Brian is only 13. He gets his birthday, and appropriate beating, on the 26th of next month. So are we headin' to Canada or what? ;D
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Post by Ranger Dude on Jan 24, 2007 7:45:42 GMT -5
I'd like to point out a few things to both sides. First, to a new person, our habit of the random threat and insult may not seem so friendly. Remember, this is the web and intonation doesn't come across. I can easily see where Skyth would get the impression we are a bunch of hard-a$$es when we say "so and so deserves a kick in the nads." On the other hand, if all you wanted was our interpretaion of the rules, why do you keep trying to argue a point. You asked, we answered, and that should be the end of it. Instead, you keep bringing up such and such faq saying this or that. In the time I've been playing, I've noticed anyone can find a faq to say what they want. I tend to ignore them.
Anyone read Jervis's article in white-dwarf this month. It's quite fitting. I was quite happy to see one of the big names uses a philosophy so cole to mine. I know most players have more experience than I do since I don't play that often. This means they tend to know more about the rules than I do, particularly the small details. So if I do something, and I'm told I'm wrong, I'll usually so "Ok, no problem." Works the other way to. If I think something is wrong and my oponent can give me a reasonable explanation of why it isn't, then I'm fine with it. Personally, I'd have no real problem playing th board edge rule, as long as it was clear to begin with. You'd be in for a rude surprise since my marines are mostly Jump troops. But the consensus around here is that is NOT the way it is played. That is the response you were given to the question you asked. Drop it.
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nycowboy
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Post by nycowboy on Jan 24, 2007 10:02:19 GMT -5
Skyth the caliber of player in the Upstate New York is phenomenal; I don't think there is anywhere else in the north east, possible the country that has players that can compare to who you will see up here. That being said I would like you to know that everyone up here has nothing to prove when it comes to playing; we are all very good and we all respect each other (for the most part). So we don't like to twist the rules, or spend an entire game arguing with someone over stupid rules questions. And to have someone from out of town, whether your playing here in Syracuse or there in Rochester, try and argue the rules set forth and used by the local meta game is insulting. Your coming here, so you will need to suck it up and play by the rules as used here or just not play, and we all are too nice to want to see you stop playing. But I guaranty if you try and cheat or become a rules lawyer you wont find many people to play against (at least here in Syracuse)
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Post by doc on Jan 24, 2007 10:44:09 GMT -5
Well Jason, it still would feel like getting screwed if someone pulled that on me in a tourney. I think that if they are gonna F--- you , they should at least kiss you and buy you dinner. Rest assured, if you pull some crap like this on me in a tourney, I will send you to soft score Hell. well, if it is rule it is a rule! I personally don't like it, but then again I don't like the Obliterator rules, period! you really can NOT ding someone for playing within the rules...
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MajorSoB
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Post by MajorSoB on Jan 24, 2007 12:42:21 GMT -5
Jason, playing within the rules is never a problem. You know me and you have seen how I both play and score opponents. The question here is playing on the fringes of the rules. You and many others might say that it would not affect your scoring but I cannot honestly say that. Usually one of the guidelines in tournaments is worded like "rate this game, 10 being the best game ever, 1 being the worst), since this style of play is one I distain, you do the math on my score in this example. Also, in GTs there is the categories of sportmanship and the elusive honor points. I find this unsporting and less than honorable, so again do the math on these scores. I have lost my share of games, being wiped clean from the table in many of them, but enjoyed both the game and opponent, and scored them appropriately. The difference here all boils down to the player and their outlook on the game. Yes, there are power gamers and rules lawyers out there, who in there own minds find nothing wrong with there slant on the game. Yes, they are well within the rules to play as they like, no arguement here. All I am saying, along with many others here, is that this style of play is not fostered or encouraged here within our group. This whole thread as Range Dude pointed out was started to inquire as to the type of play and rules commonly used in this area. I feel I have stated this quite clearly.
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Post by doc on Jan 24, 2007 15:27:43 GMT -5
I find this unsporting and less than honorable, so again do the math on these scores. I have lost my share of games, being wiped clean from the table in many of them, but enjoyed both the game and opponent, and scored them appropriately. The difference here all boils down to the player and their outlook on the game. snipped your post for clarity... whilst I perfectly support the way you guys play out there - and you ARE some of the best guys to play with (and drink with) in the USA - I'm not certain I agree with you on this point... If in fact it IS part of the 4th ed rules (I'll need to look it up later), why is it "bad"? Where do you draw the line? The 18" push back for the 5 wound Carnifex so your army ended up being clustered for 3 biovore shots per turn, was just as bad (in my opinion), yet it was an accepted tactic - or do you find that unsporting too? As with many rules in 40K and FB there are detractors and victims, but tactics can overcome a lot of the "hot air". Now the problem with some of the US designed RTT scenarios is that the side edge can be up to 30"! But why is it bad to use the rule? Don't penalize the player, kick the dumb-ass who designed a bad scenario! Luckily the GT ones are Rulebook based, so it will not be such an issue, and only 3/8 have reserves (we are talking JUST about reserves here, not the beginning phase deployment right?!). To be honest I'm saddened that a broken GW rule had gotten everyones panties in a knot! Just play the game... I usually loose anyway - though my bugs are 7/1 and 2 overall trophies in the past 3 weeks...
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MajorSoB
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Post by MajorSoB on Jan 24, 2007 18:05:45 GMT -5
You make a fine point in that GW did not clarify several rules and left them open for interpretation, thus breaking an otherwise good game. Thank you for the compliment but please allow me to clarify my stance on this.
While I believe that the interpretation being discussed in wrong, I could conceed that somewhere somebody would be allowed to do it, that is deploy in escalation to get and extra 6-12" with an otherwise slow moving model. My feeling on escalation is that this mission was intentionally designed to try to help balance the game and discourage the all monstrous creature/ vehicle heavy armies from ruling the game. I do believe that GW knew this when the rule was written pertaining to this mission. That being said, in my mind it is not if you can interpret the rule to gain the extra movement but should you? I have played many games where I could have done something but didn't to stick within the spirit of the game. These things include not shooting that partially visible defiler leg when it was clear that the player had placed their model behind a building, not targeting a vehicle that I could barely see around cover, argueing over a charge that was right at the 6" mark, etc. I do not respect players that do things like this, and I believe they do make an atmosphere where honor and sportmanship is non existant. Jason, you know the style that we play. I do not believe anyone in this group would resort to a tactic like this to gain a win. We,as a group ( not necessarily me, hell I am not that good of a player) win with our skills that we have refined from playing each other as well as playing in many tournaments. I cannot think of one instance where someone in our group chose to interprete a rule to gain an advantage like this. My point might be different if this seemed to be a clear oversight or misiterpretation, but in this case it feels like the point is being argued by someone who clearly benefits from having this rule interpreted to their particular way of thinking.
Here is an example for arguement sake. Dark eldar characters cannot use a webway portal while mounted on a reaper jetbike or a skyboard. Does this mean that I can dismount either of these vehicles and them deploy the webway? It doesn't say you can't or does it? How about this, a dark eldar character carries a webway while mounted in a raider. The raider is open topped. Can I now deploy the webway from the raider since it is open topped? No where does it say I can't. Can the raider move? If so can the character throw down the webway out of the open topped vehicle because technically the model has not moved, only the vehicle did? The reason I focus on these examples is that if I could bend the rules and get someone to agree to all of them, my Wych Cult army would rock. Have I tried to do this, no, because although it would benefit me and there is enough ambiguity where I might sucessfully argue my point, I do not feel it would be honorable and sporting. This is what the crux of my agruement is based on, fair play.
Sorry to belabor the point, but I do feel this is a discussion worth having.
So Jason, any chance you might show this year at Toronto? We missed seeing you last year, it would be a pleasure to see you again, who knows maybe at our GT next year?
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Post by dragons3 on Jan 24, 2007 18:41:54 GMT -5
SKYTH: "DaBoyz" are well controlled group of ball busters, quite bright, stick together and usually don't hold grudges. Reasons for shots at this website are mainly to entice people into matches or just friends being silly. Ignore the Dragon/Iron Warrior confrontations, one of us had to grow up, (that would be Ron). ;D ;D ;D "JUST KIDDING!" If you ask questions here, they will be answered. Anyone who has the time will usually answer, everyone has things outside of gaming. Half this clan can or has run a tournaments and they seldom have problems. AND THE MOST IMPORTANT THING OF ALL IS: "DON'T PISS OF THE DRAGON, HE BITES. CIAO! AND HAVE A NICE DAY! ITS TIME TO END THIS THREAD, MAJOR S.O.B. WRITES MORE THAN MOST MONKS. ;D ;D ;D
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