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Post by skyth on Jan 17, 2007 21:56:45 GMT -5
Since I'm thinking of moving to the area, I'm curious as to which version of the rules is used in the area.
I'm not looking for a rules argument, just how the rule is generally played in the area.
Start off with Line of Sight-
According to the rules, size levels are only used to determine line of sight in the case of area terrain and shooting over close combats. Some people contend that they are used for all LoS calculations (ie you have a Rhino blocking line of sight to a defiler behind it).
According to the rules, you use true line of sight, which could have line of sight drawn through the legs of a dreadnought or monstrous creatures. Is it played that way? What parts block line of sight if it isn't? (IE can you shoot over the base, but not through an inclosed area?)
Reserves-
Accoridng to the rules, you come in from (And fall back towards) your deployment zone board edge, which includes both short sides that are in your deployment zone(12"-15" up the side depending on the mission) in long-table edge missions, and both sides of your deployment zone in quarters missions.
In escalation, only basic infantry may be deployed. It is contended that the 'may' allows anything to be left in reserves during escalation.
USR's-
By the rules, the USR's replace in full the text of any similarly named skills. However, in certain armies, there are restrictions on who can take a skill embedded in the rules text of those skills (For instance, infiltrate in the Chaos codex and True Grit in the Daemonhunters codex). There was an (unofficial) FAQ on the GW boards that stated that this was something that was overlooked and the restrictions are still in place.
Multiple wound units-
The rules state you must remove whole models when possible when taking casaulties in a unit that has multiple multi-wound models and one of those is being wounded. Does this mean that an insta-kill removes an unwounded model, or can it be taken on a model that already is wounded?
Chaos codex:
By the rules, the Daemon Icon allows summoning the enslaved daemons at the start of the Chaos player's turn. As the first turn is the start of the Chaos player's turn, those daemons can be summoned turn 1.
Models with Daemonic speed are classified as infantry models that move like beasts, so they still deploy in escalation. According to the (unofficial) forum FAQ and the UKGT FAQ they deploy in escalation. Some people contend that they actually become beasts and do not deploy.
By the rules, Chaos land raiders can split fire, but are not a scoring unit if taken as a dedicated transport. The forum FAQ said to have them use the same rules as a loyalist land raider. Which applies?
By the rules, any marked unit has a free icon. An independant character is classified as a unit, and if marked has a free icon. Is it played that way here?
Marines-
By the rules, it is possible to field a command squad by itself without an attached IC as an HQ choice. Some people contend that this is an oversight.
Whirlwind ammunition is chosen before the start of the game. The start of the game is defined as the step right after deployment. When exactly do you choose the ammunition?
Hood of hellfire doubles the range of any psychic power. Fear of the darkness has no defined range, but rather a 12" area of effect, so is not doubled by the hood. Other people contend that the 12" is actually a 'range'.
Daemonhunters:
By the rules, Mystics only allow shots at deepstriking or summoned units. Drop pods use thier own rules, not the deepstrike or summoning rules, so are not shot at by mystics. The (unofficial) forum FAQ allows a shot at either the pod or the unit inside, whereas the UKGT FAQ allows a shot at the pod before units are deployed from the pod. Which interpretation is used?
By the rules, psycannons only allow armor saves to be taken against them. As cover saves are not armor saves, they cannot be used against a psycannon. Some people contend that the rules don't mean what they say.
A turbo-boosting bike has it's armor save treated as an invulnerable save, and thus is ignored by psy-weaponry. The Forum FAQ confirmed this. Some people contend that the bikes still have thier armor save.
Eldar-
Swooping hawks with Skyleap can leap back into reserves the same turn that they deepstrike in. Some people believe that the rules don't mean what they say.
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MajorSoB
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Post by MajorSoB on Jan 17, 2007 22:41:37 GMT -5
OK let's see what I can answer...
Line of Sight
The way we play is true line of sight if fighting in Cities of Death buildng with actual levels. Other games use line of sight, however a level 3 rhino blocks line of sight to a level three defiler. Shots through the legs of a dreadnaught are not taken and will result in a swift kick to the balls.
Reserves
Fall back- Go to your table edge, and yes both table edges in a game where the board in quartered.
Escalation- You may place all your units in reserve if you want meaning you have a choice to either start your troops on the board or in reserve in reserve missions.
USR's
No idea what term you are discussing
Multi wound units
Whole models must be removed when possible.
Chaos codex
Deamons cannot be summoned on turn one with one exception, the banner which allows you to place a unit within. Summoning, like deep strike and reserves start on turn two.
Deamons are held in reserve in escalation, regardless of their speed since deamons are summoned. They are not rolled for as a reserve unit, but as a summoned unit. Deamons need a icon in play (on the table at the start of the turn) to summon off of.
Chaos land raiders are like marine land raiders. If taken as a heavy, they are a scoring unit, however if taken as a dedicated transport they do not count as a scoring unit and connot hold objectives or table quarters.
Independent characters without a retinue are not units unto themselves and do not get free icons. You must buy them.
Marines
Command squads are taken as retunie for marine HQ characters.
Whirlwind ammunition should be declared before setup.
Hood of Hellfire is that Tygerius' special hood? If so, yes it does double Fear of the Darkness, and yes Tygerius is one potentially one of the most broken special characters in the game against certain armies.
Daemonhunters
Drop pods do not get shot when landing period.
Psycannons allow no invunerable save however a normal armor save may be taken. Turbo boosting bikes still have their armor save. This weapon was designed to be used against deamons who only have an invunerable save IMO, and that is why it ignores invunerable saves.
Eldar
No swooping hawks do not land and leave on the same turn. That is not what was meant when the rule was written no matter how poorly GW wrote it. Again a swift kick in the balls in is order.
Additionally the Autarch loses fleet of foot when mounted on a jetbike.
Tyranids
Before you ask a 1+ armor save is not possible.
One thing disturbs me about these questions and that is the overall spirit of them. They all border using the rules as they are written to find some loophole to exploit. This is not how we play here in Rochester and it is frowned upon when your opponent attempts to use some unclear and obscure rule to gain an advantage. Fair play and fair armies are what is encouraged here. I hope that the nature of you questioning was to get to know us better rather than see what a player might get away with when playing. Fun should be the reason you play and it is never fun when an opponent uses borderline tactics to win.
Hope this helps!
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Post by skyth on Jan 18, 2007 5:16:17 GMT -5
It's to get to know the area better. One of the quickest ways to ruin the fun in the game is to have a rules argument, especially in the middle of the game. I also know that almost no one plays by the actual rules of the game, usually picking and choosing which rules they like and don't. Plus there are conflicting FAQ's (Unofficial FAQ vs the actual rules). These are the rules that alot of people disagree about for various reasons, so I wanted to find if a concensus has been reached in the area.
Anyone else want to pipe in?
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Post by Brinan The Barbarian on Jan 18, 2007 8:09:28 GMT -5
I could be wrong, but I don't think you can summon daemons first turn. I'm a Black Legion player, and I play a heavy daemon force, so if there is anyway my Daemonettes on Steeds can get in first turn, please show me!
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Iron Warrior
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Post by Iron Warrior on Jan 18, 2007 14:54:23 GMT -5
The Daemon Icon will allow you to summon deamons on turn one. Reasoning behind this is that they are bound to the Icon and are already summoned. They just need to be released (fluff wise)
Only allowed one and it has to be carried by chosen. And I think (not sure) its undivided only?
USR, played as in the BBB (Big Black Book..aka the rule book) Who can get the USR is dependent on the codex.
SoB covered the rest pretty well.
Welcome BTW, hope to see you come up for a game soon.
im the local Chaos/Ork resident expert (along with some Kemp dude) I Play: Iron Warriors Word bearers Thousand sons Evil Sunz Imperial Guard Lost and the d**ned
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moz
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Post by moz on Jan 18, 2007 15:07:21 GMT -5
OK let's see what I can answer... EldarAdditionally the Autarch loses fleet of foot when mounted on a jetbike. Unless you yell "YABBA DABBA DOO!"
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Hagbard The Mighty
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Post by Hagbard The Mighty on Jan 18, 2007 15:51:06 GMT -5
Just becuase it hasn't been said in a while: Your dad already answered that question.
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nycowboy
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Post by nycowboy on Jan 18, 2007 17:03:56 GMT -5
They have covered all the answers I would have given you skyth. Both Syracuse and Rochester play each other allot so we tend to play by the same rule sets.
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Post by Brinan The Barbarian on Jan 18, 2007 17:53:27 GMT -5
Just becuase it hasn't been said in a while: Your dad already answered that question. I was asking how you could summon daemons first turn
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Post by skyth on Jan 18, 2007 19:52:20 GMT -5
Some of the ways you guys play, I do disagree with... I actually prefer the coming in on the short sides of the deployment zone from escalation. It creates a more dynamic and fun game in my opinion. It also makes monstrous creatures that don't move faster than normal (Avatar, Carnifexes, slow daemon princes, etc) worth taking, as they actually stand a chance of getting into a fight. It's also no different, rules wise, than coming in on the side in a quarters mission like Cleanse, or the diagonal deployments like some RTT missions. I also prefer true line of sight for the most part, other than shooting through an enclosed open area in a model. I don't like that a low riding Rhino can block line of sight to a huge Land Raider, Defiler, or Daemon Prince. But I don't condone shooting through the legs of a model or under the tracks of a tank, etc. This one isn't a big deal as long as how it's played is figured out before the game. I also like playing by the forum FAQ, which allows mystics to grant a shot at drop pods as they come down, targeting either the pod or the squad inside. In my opinion, not allowing it falls in the same category as fleeting with an Autarach on a jetbike or playing an infiltrating Khorne army. Not being an Eldar player, it doesn't really affect me, but I would have no problem with an Eldar player rubber-banding thier swooping hawks. I just see it as them staying in the air rather than landing. More expensive than a whirlwind and less effective, plus it's stll risky. (Not that I would do it if my opponent had a problem with it, just I give anyone playing me permission to do it )
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MajorSoB
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Post by MajorSoB on Jan 18, 2007 21:32:26 GMT -5
Again let me address your concerns with the fact that your agruements seem to center around taking an unclear rule and bending it to your advantage.
Short sides are not deployement zones unless specifically stated in the mission. I fully understand that some slower moving units get hosed, as well as several units like a whirlwind that cannot fire when it arrives, but these are the exact reasons that we encourage balanced forces.
If you come to Rochester and Syracuse you will be playing with several GT winners. The rules we play by are accepted at most all GTs.
The problem with true line of sight is that it encourages modeling to bend the rules. It happened before my time, but may vets here will tell stories of prone or kneeling Wraithlord that were done intentionally to exploit that rule.
What is this forum you speak of? The one GW USED to have? Syracuse referred to it at the webcomic for good reason, probably because if you read it long enough you would come away even more confused than when you started. Short of Congress, it was the biggest assembling of idiots on the planet. I don't want to sound elitist, but the way we play seems to be very fair and also seems to be accepted most everywhere we have played. Using fringe rule interpretations to shot drop pods do not seem sporting.
As for the swooping hawks, I believe you would have a different opinion on the matter if you were in a tourney and did not have a fair shot at killing that unit. If your opponent took several squads along with the lord you would really not enjoy that game. Perverting the rules so that your opponent can never shoot your unit is unsporting as well.
There are several burly armies out there that are constructed on a gimick, most famously the Slaneesh army with minor psychic powers that uses Siren to make it all but invunerable. The 9 obliterator Iron Warrior army is another one. You will not see these armies here, since most people here understand they are exploiting the rules and do not give your opponent a fair and enjoyable game. They fail in GT's as well, not because they don't play well, but because they soft score horribly. Why play a game that is not fun?
Again I invite you to play with us.
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Post by skyth on Jan 18, 2007 22:06:41 GMT -5
I don't see coming in on the short sides as bending the rules at all. I see it as creating a more dynamic, thus more fun game. I've actually played it both ways. It's not to specifically aid or hinder to anyone's advantage. I'm fine playing it coming in the far edge and ignoring the parts of the board edge that border the deployment zone on the side if that's the way it's played locally.
I know my way with words isn't the best. To make sure we're both talking about the same thing, I'm not talking about the entire short board edge. In long table deployment missions, the deployment zone extends 12" or 15" onto the table. The short board edge that border that part of the table (the 12-15" from the long table edge) is indeed a board edge on your deployment zone.
Yeah, I was talking about the FAQ that was stickied on the GW boards (Not the endless discussion there by people without a clue). However, every major FAQ that has come out (UKGT FAQ, Adepticon FAQ, and the YakFAQ) has allowed mystics to allow shots at incoming drop pods. I honestly consider anyone who doesn't allow mystics to target incoming pod as exploiting a rules loophole, the same as someone who takes an infiltrating statured glaive daemon prince. Though from the looks of it, I shouldn't even bother bringing my Daemonhunters. Pity, as they are actually my favorite army.
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MajorSoB
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Post by MajorSoB on Jan 18, 2007 22:23:26 GMT -5
In effort to be fair, I will review the mystic rule you are questioning as well as the Adepticon take on it. It may be something worth reconsidering.
Don't be put off, Daemonhunters are a great army, pity that killing deamons are the thing they seem to least excel at. There are daemonhunter players here as well, both inquisitorial and radical, maybe they can chime in on the mystic special rule.
Update:
I looked at the FAQ and here is my take.
The rule states "Mystics allow you to take a free shot at each summoned pack of Daemons or unit that Deep Strike within 4D6 of the Inquisitor." Drop pods do not deep strike but are placed in play using the Drop Pod special rule found in the Space Marine codex, therefore mystics cannot shoot a drop pod or the unit inside since they are not daemons and do not arrive using the deep strike rule.
I also looked at the Adepticon rules pack and it does seem that you can shoot with a mystic as you described according to their rules. I do see the grey area there, I guess the best way to solve this issue would be to consult the judges or your opponent before the game actually start.
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Post by MallSecurity on Jan 18, 2007 22:55:56 GMT -5
I actually agree with Skyth about the Board Edges on Escalation missions. It gives units like CC Carnifexes and other such units a slight Chance of being involved in the game when they would otherwise do nothing. It helps level the playing field a bit, and that is how the rules are worded in the Rulebook.
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nycowboy
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Post by nycowboy on Jan 19, 2007 13:14:47 GMT -5
I actually agree with Skyth about the Board Edges on Escalation missions. It gives units like CC Carnifexes and other such units a slight Chance of being involved in the game when they would otherwise do nothing. It helps level the playing field a bit, and that is how the rules are worded in the Rulebook. The problem with that though is the rules say board edge when you bring reserves on If you are going to bend it to include the short sides what is to stop me from bring my reserves on in your DZ so long as I come in on the short boards edge. Cleanse has the rules written different for a reason that is why they are different then just the one edge.
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