Marauders Mayhem

[x2rock]

boldo said:

I would have told Cory no to the Rhinoxrider as it is clearly not a conversion. Now if he put a rat ogre on it, removed the rats inside the wheels and put some larger creature and removed the lightning generator I would say sure (though I like this years solution better. )
Boldo

Ironic enough, this is pretty much the conversion that I did. I used pieces from the Doomwheel and the Screaming Bell, to make the main body. The whole thing was pushed by a couple of Rat Ogres, and a beefed up hero was riding on the top platform. To me, it represented the rules fair enough... Large Target, Terror, Impact Hits, Stong attacks from the beasts, a beefy rider, good armor save. Plus it fit the Moulderish theme of the army since I had Rat Ogres in all my Clanrat units, and Giant rats running around in my Slave units. It really wasn't just a thrown in Doomwheel just to use the rules, I tried to have a well thought out conversion. Other people just didn't see it the same way... oh well.

I'll be the first to admit, I'm probably not the best guy to judge what a reasonable conversion is, because I like to see wild and creative things on the other side of the table, and if you tell me what it is, then we're good to go, I dig stuff that is outside the box.

Hopefully by having participants check ahead of time to have their conversions OK'd, then we can avoid any situations like what I had to go through last year. It seems like the best way to handle it.

[grumgore]

boldo said:

Mike there is a difference between a proxy and a conversion and the big difference is the ability to understand what something is. It seems to me that difference is the creative intent. A proxy is a thing not designed for what it is used for. Also a conversion would represent all the relevant element of the item like weapons, movement type, base, and armor. I think they are refering to the halfling anything army of Ridderick. He was using other things for whatever the army de jour is and they were not created for this. In the examples from last year the doomwheel was made for a doomwheel and used as a rhinoxrider while the drakes were made to represent fliers. Jason Halladay is a converting fiend and though he does not allow proxy armies I am sure he would have no problem with the drakes.

I understand what is a proxie and what is a conversion. I actually played against the halfling army twice, and was incredibly challenging to know what was what. This army started the backlash against proxie armies.

A conversion is using the base miniature as a starting point. A proxie is using something else.

I personally don't have a problem with the drakes. I actually explained the situation to the player involved and mentioned my concern... the way the present rules were written there wasn't any flexibility. IMO, it is better to stict strictly by the tournament rules and not change them during the day of the tournament otherwise you lose credibility, and you set a precidence that rules may be broken. That is why this year I opened up the restrictions.

What I don't understand is why are you arguing that I should allow proxies when clearly I have already done so - but with prior permission? I figured that was the best compromise for everyone.

boldo said:

They started the indie circuit to make tournaments for the more casual player with an emphasis on fun and I agree with John reasonable conversion really improve my enjoyment of a tournament.

I incourage conversions... heck I give points for doing so under painting. Why do you say I don't encourage conversions? What basis are you making this statement on? Please if you cannot back up what you are saying with fact then this is just an arguement for arguement's sake. Last year there was a wrinkle in the tournament, and I spent some time to help iron it out.

boldo said:

Finally from your rules it sounds like equipment whould be wysiwyg. I would assume I can hit my opponent for all books, scrolls, shields, and great weapons (to say nothing of other magic items) which are not modeled. Your arguement that verteran fantasy players know otherwise seems to fly in the face of your stern interpretation of wysiwyg.

Boldo

Again please back this up with how I make my definition of WSYIWYG different from other tournaments. Lets deal with facts.

[Norton]

I like you grumgore.

In fact, I like you so much I'm going to kidnap chinese girls and we can setup a Grumgore Breeding facility just for you.

[Iron Warrior]

Wow! If your willing to do that for Grumgore, you must REALLY like him...I wish I had my own chinese breeding facility....d**n!

[grumgore]

Hmmm... I am not sure I know how to take that comment....

I suppose it can't be all bad...

[boldo]

I think the problem is we disagree about what is a proxy. I feel a proxy is something that is was intended to be something and is instead used as something else. A conversion does not have to start out with the origional model but could use anything. I am working on a sister of sigmar themed empire army and I have used all sort of models to be the base for swordmen in an empire army none of them are swordsmen. As for equipment beign wysiwyg on page 2 of your rules under minatures rule 1 states all models should be wysiwyg and I quote "This means that if you paid for an upgrade on a model, then the model must display that upgrade, and vice versa". Equipment is an upgrade so it must be modeled. Magical items are equipment so they must be modeled. I am warned that and I quote, "the judge will be specifically looking to enforce this." Sounds clear to me model every piece of equipment. How can you claim this is not what it means.

My problem is that in rule 3 under minatures you make it clear to me that you are being very tough on what is a proxy so if that is so then I want to be sure everything is covered as my conversions are your proxies.

As for proxy models what does a nurgle chariot look like. How are you handling this as there is no real model so everything is a proxy or many others in Storm of chaos.

Finally what about the dioramic bases in units?

Boldo

[x2rock]

boldo said:

Equipment is an upgrade so it must be modeled. Magical items are equipment so they must be modeled. I am warned that and I quote, "the judge will be specifically looking to enforce this." Sounds clear to me model every piece of equipment. How can you claim this is not what it means.

As far as I know magic items have never been a WYSIWYG requirement. But you're right, someone would probably try to rules-lawyer that one up, so we'll specifically call out that magic items are not WYSIWYG.

boldo said:

My problem is that in rule 3 under minatures you make it clear to me that you are being very tough on what is a proxy so if that is so then I want to be sure everything is covered as my conversions are your proxies.

Actually, when I read it, it sounds like he is not being super tough on conversions, and would just like players to seek permission ahead of time to avoind any confusion. Seems reasonable to me.

boldo said:

As for proxy models what does a nurgle chariot look like. How are you handling this as there is no real model so everything is a proxy or many others in Storm of chaos.

I believe this would fall under item #2 "Ensure you are using the correct miniatures to represent your units as far as you can." And since there is no Nurgle Chariot model, then a conversion would be in order.

boldo said:

Finally what about the dioramic bases in units?

I used some in my army last year... as long as the unit has the correct rank-n-file models along w/ the dioramic base, what would be the problem. If you think it's questionable, check it out ahead of time.

[boldo]

I guess I go back to Adam Clark's army in Annual 2002 is this legal? He has converted a whole army and used dioramic bases without the base model. Look at the pictures on pg 38. You have seen my dwarf army I have dioramic bases with dwarven cooks and forges. I've seen bugmans cart used not in rangers, and I loved Jason Holliday's miner themed dwarves with ore carts. It is a lot of hassel to send a picture of every conversion I have done to check with you and a description can fail like it did with the doomwheel rhinoxrider (sorry Corey I did not know you had built it special).

I think the biggest problem in running a tournament is to avoid the appearance of favoritism. If players travela distance to your tournament and feel they had a dose of home cooking then they will not come back and will tell their friends about it. So is adding all these subjective hurdles to model conversion helping or hurting.

Boldo

[grumgore]

boldo said:

I guess I go back to Adam Clark's army in Annual 2002 is this legal? He has converted a whole army and used dioramic bases without the base model. Look at the pictures on pg 38. You have seen my dwarf army I have dioramic bases with dwarven cooks and forges. I've seen bugmans cart used not in rangers, and I loved Jason Holliday's miner themed dwarves with ore carts. It is a lot of hassel to send a picture of every conversion I have done to check with you and a description can fail like it did with the doomwheel rhinoxrider (sorry Corey I did not know you had built it special).

I think the biggest problem in running a tournament is to avoid the appearance of favoritism. If players travela distance to your tournament and feel they had a dose of home cooking then they will not come back and will tell their friends about it. So is adding all these subjective hurdles to model conversion helping or hurting.

Boldo

Everyone has their own opinion of what should and shouldn't be in a tournament. For instance you have paper comp as the only means of scoring comp - I have already stated my opinion on the matter, and you made your decision. Which is great,and what makes every tournament unique and not just from a cookie cutter.

The same goes to proxie stuff. While most IndyGT tournaments are relatively strict on what is allowed, other tournaments like the Hillbilly is open to everything. That allows people to pick and choose what event they would like to participate in. I am personally participating in the Hillbilly, not because of the rules (which I am not a big fan of) but because it gives me a chance to play against old friends of mine I haven't seen a while from the gaming circuit.

That being said, when I played against Adam Clark's chaos army (the one you refer to) I found the warriors a bit confusing to play agianst, but since the tournament allowed it and it looked cool, I played the game against him without complaint (and Adam is also a very easy going guy and very accomodating).

Personally I would have discouraged that warrior unit because it is very much a proxie (and didn't follow WYSIWYG except on a few corner warriors). It would be a GREAT centerpiece for his army display, though, and he should still get good points for having a great display for his army.

[Iron Warrior]

Why is this such a huge issue? If its a gw model and appropiate for what the model is supposed to be (like a dwarf forge in the middle of miners or warriors you KNOW its represtents 4 dwarfs and it looks good) then why is it an issue? (this is a conversion)

A Skaven doomwheel with rat ogres is really stretching it for a Rhinox rider. (this is a proxie)

The eagles (or drakes) If he took the eagles green stuffed them up to look like little dragons for his elf army would this be a problem? Probably not? Then why give him heat about using the drakes OBVIOUSLY they are not mini dragons but eagles. Its not a far fetched idea, I dont think there will be any confusion with the conversion. I dont think anyone will be "OMG there is 3 DRAGONS..small ones...flying down my flank!" No, I have never said that when I play John. Or given a fuss about Boldos diarama dwarfs...YOu should be watching him on his carefree attitude about his wheels and turns (hehehe Zing!) ;D

I can see where they are coming from, if your going to come down on obvious conversions then you should come down all the way and make them show the 3 scrolls the caddy is carrying or the magic sword....now this seems a little ridiculous doesnt it? Of course it does! Seems like someone is going out of thier way to discourage conversions...

Proxies I agree shouldnt be allowed, Like these skeletons are actually dwarfs or This Rat Ogre is a Dragon.

Lots of Huff and Puff about something minor and clear cut IMO.

[grumgore]

ironwarrior said:

Why is this such a huge issue? If its a gw model and appropiate for what the model is supposed to be (like a dwarf forge in the middle of miners or warriors you KNOW its represtents 4 dwarfs and it looks good) then why is it an issue? (this is a conversion).

Who said this is such a big issue? I have no problem with only 4 dwarves replaced with a forge. Most of the unit is accounted for. I was only reacting to the extreme example Boldo gave. 4 models... big deal! Approx 75% of the unit as proxie.. big deal. We gave the rule of thumb of approx 2/3's as a guide. Send the official request to [e-mail] and we'll review it.

ironwarrior said:

<snip>
The eagles (or drakes) If he took the eagles green stuffed them up to look like little dragons for his elf army would this be a problem? Probably not? Then why give him heat about using the drakes OBVIOUSLY they are not mini dragons but eagles. Its not a far fetched idea, I dont think there will be any confusion with the conversion. I dont think anyone will be "OMG there is 3 DRAGONS..small ones...flying down my flank!" No, I have never said that when I play John. Or given a fuss about Boldos diarama dwarfs...YOu should be watching him on his carefree attitude about his wheels and turns (hehehe Zing!) ;D.

Who is giving fuss about the dragon-eagles? i thought that part of the discussion was long ago made. The rules already mention that they are an example of what is acceptable!

ironwarrior said:

I can see where they are coming from, if your going to come down on obvious conversions then you should come down all the way and make them show the 3 scrolls the caddy is carrying or the magic sword....now this seems a little ridiculous doesnt it? Of course it does! Seems like someone is going out of thier way to discourage conversions...

Proxies I agree shouldnt be allowed, Like these skeletons are actually dwarfs or This Rat Ogre is a Dragon.

Lots of Huff and Puff about something minor and clear cut IMO.

Seriously, this debate is waring on me and this is the last you will hear me talk about it. There is no more debate for me. We will be fixing the rules to take into account magic items for all the rules lawyers out there (the revision has been in process between Corey and myself for the past few days). I hate to be blunt but if you don't like the rules you don't have to attend. Period. There are only a few players in Rochester who are the only ones having heartburn about what is a proxie. It is obvious to me that some people are impossible to please. If you have a proxie that you would like clarified before the tournament, send it to [e-mail] and *we'll* review it. There is more than one judge to determine if something is acceptable. And we'll let you know. I can assure you that the judges will attempt to be as fair as possible.

If you can suggest some rules clarifications we are more than happy to help out, because if you have a question chances are someone else will have a similar question. For instance we'll be putting in the clarification in about magic items.

Thank you for your interest.

Cheers,
Mike

[Iron Warrior]

Seriously, this debate is waring on me and this is the last you will hear me talk about it. There is no more debate for me. We will be fixing the rules to take into account magic items for all the rules lawyers out there (the revision has been in process between Corey and myself for the past few days). I hate to be blunt but if you don't like the rules you don't have to attend. Period. The few in Rochester are the only ones having heartburn about what is a proxie. It is obvious to me that some people are impossible to please. If you have a proxie that you would like clarified before the tournament, send it to [e-mail] and *we'll* review it. There is more than one judge to determine if something is acceptable. And we'll let you know. I can assure you that the judges will attempt to be as fair as possible.

Typical...Little info for you. This is mainly a rochester board, most of our memebers are indeed from rochester. Singling them(us) out with "the people who are having heartburn about it" is proabably not a good way to promote your tournament to our region. Thank you for making my descion easier, I will not be attending you tournament for 2 reasons.

#1) I am not going to spend my precious time to ask permission of every thing I personally converted in my army and send you pics of it so that "you'll review it "

#2.) Youre tasteless and unprofessional comment about rochester players. You have some strange way of promoting your tournament and orginization.
*salute*

[MallSecurity]

I personally think the WYSIWYG rules are pretty much fine as written. The only real question about WYSIWYG I have seen so far is to what degree magic items must be modeled on heroes, which is pretty minor in my opinion. Even reaper models seem pretty cut and dry most of the time, just be sure to run down your list to your opponent before the game as recognized in the tournament rules.

And when in doubt ask the tournament director? This has been the case in every tournament I have ever played in; I don't see why it’s a big fuss now.

I also was not remotely offended by anything grumgore said in any of his posts.



The only thing I noticed when I was reading the rules is that last part of the section 'Saturday Dinner Break' seems to be cut off.

The last part of the section:
"Players will be divided into groups of five where they will-"

[x2rock]

Wow Iron Warrior, don't take it off the deep end so quickly. Obviously, if you don't agree w/ the tournament rules, then not attending is definitely an option. But the WYSIWYG rules are pretty standard fare. We've actually taken steps to allow more creative conversions than some tournaments, but those provisions seem to keep getting overlooked.

And I don't think that Mike made an attack on Rochester gamers in general. What was pointed out, is that of all the different gaming groups that we've passed these rules around to, the few that posted here are the only ones to have issues w/ the WYSIWYG rules, noone else. That's not to minimalize anyone's concerns, but I think it's been addressed.

boldo said:

I think the biggest problem in running a tournament is to avoid the appearance of favoritism. If players travela distance to your tournament and feel they had a dose of home cooking then they will not come back and will tell their friends about it. So is adding all these subjective hurdles to model conversion helping or hurting.
Boldo

I could not agree w/ you more Boldo. I think it would be a big issue if a homer showed up w/ a difficult to identify conversion and was playing against an out-of-towner, and the judge allowed the conversion to be used, when the rules specifically call for WYSIWYG. Since the rules do have provisions for conversions, and if getting the conversion reviewed prior to the tournament is all it takes, then I think we really are trying to avoid the appearance of favoritism.

[cirrus]

I was going to type a nice long reply here. I have decided it's not worth it. This is a ridiculous arguement. If you choose not to attend that is your choice. But, do you argue with GW rules when you go to their tournaments? I didn't think so.
The definitions are clear and concise. The instructions are also.
If you have a problem asking the question and making sure, go ahead and bring an illegal contraption, judges have the final word, so don't cry about it.