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Post by grumgore on Apr 2, 2006 7:31:27 GMT -5
The Marauders Mayhem, a two-day WFB tournament, will be taking place on Sept 23-24th at the Soccer Hall of Fame, Oneonta, NY. The rules for the tournament should be posted within the week. Hope to see you guys there! www.marauders-inc.com
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boldo
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Post by boldo on Apr 4, 2006 12:20:57 GMT -5
I am looking forward to it already.
Boldo
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Post by grumgore on Apr 11, 2006 20:26:09 GMT -5
Marauders Mayhem will be taking place September 23rd to 24th at the Soccer Hall of Fame, Oneonta, NY. At this point we need the following to pre-register: Name Army City, State Ph # email Payment is not required at this time (though it is appreciated). Once the spots are filled we will start up a waiting list. Payment must be received *BEFORE* August 1st, 2006, to secure your advanced registration. The entrance fee is $25, and as last year this will include the cost of a pizza dinner Saturday night. The rules package is nearly done and will be ready by the end of the week. So if you are interested in participating this year please sign up soon. If you later find out you can't make it please let me know right away so that someone can take your spot. Cheers, Mike www.marauders-inc.com
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Post by grumgore on Apr 14, 2006 20:50:27 GMT -5
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Post by Norton on Apr 17, 2006 8:18:13 GMT -5
Hey john! Check it out, he made a specific mention of your baby dragons as eagles!
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boldo
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Post by boldo on Apr 17, 2006 14:31:53 GMT -5
This seems to specifically go against the idea of Indie GT's. They allow all minis from any company and encourage the outrageous. Here Mike is discouraging the conversion and even gives us an example of a very tame conversion which is in his mind questionable.
Wouldn's it be better to use a reasonable test. If a player with a bit of experience against the army could identify what these are then they are fine. They are also based correctly and have all the identifying characteristics of the origional model ie. 2 claws, and flies.
As an interesting note GW has recently discontinued the Giant Eagle so at this momment there is no model presently avail to represent these.
Boldo
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Post by johnboo on Apr 18, 2006 10:00:20 GMT -5
Hey john! Check it out, he made a specific mention of your baby dragons as eagles! Yeah - I'm pretty sure Mike used mine as the example because in his rules last year he had no way to draw the line on WYSIWYG between mine and a Bull Rhinox rider as a Skaven doomwheel as the two extremes, though I think Mike puts a bit too much thought into it. Most of the vet players in attendance last year let into Mike on pretty hard on this subject, and hopefully he got the message. I for one was prepared to be a complete a-hole and go around to find every scroll caddy mage not modelled with a scroll to be removed had Mike requested I remove my drakes. Conversions and creativity are a *huge* part of the hobby, and a big reason for players to attend large tournaments - just to see cool stuff. I'd also encourage the "be reasonable" test - after you inform someone what the model/models represent you get a "hey, thats pretty cool/clever!" reaction, its OK, but if you get a raised eyebrow or a "Really?!?!?" it's probably too much of a stretch. I personally can't wait to nail all those treehugger players that dont WYSIWYG their Spites if Mike really wants strict WYSIWYG. "Hey man, that doenst look like a Resplendance of Luminescents to me!" LOL!
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Post by grumgore on Apr 18, 2006 20:15:31 GMT -5
This seems to specifically go against the idea of Indie GT's. They allow all minis from any company and encourage the outrageous. Here Mike is discouraging the conversion and even gives us an example of a very tame conversion which is in his mind questionable. <snip> That is a pretty sweeping statement. The only one I know of that allows proxies/count-as is the Hillbilly. Necro: "Proxy armies and models are not allowed. There has been too much controversy in the past and we are just going to cut them out completely. If you have an idea and are unsure if it is a proxy, or if you think we would prefer you not use it, please email us and let us know what it is, I am sure we can work it out one way or the other. " Bayou battles: "Non GW Miniatures are allowed, however, they should resemble what they are supposed to. " Bleeders Cup: "All modes must represent what they are supposed to be according to the rules they are being used under. WYSIWYG is the rule (What you see is what you get). However, miniatures need not be produced by any particular corporation." Alamo: "All models must represent what they are supposed to be according to the rules they are being used under. WYSIWYG is the rule (What you see is what you get). However, miniatures need not be produced by any particular corporation. "
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Post by grumgore on Apr 18, 2006 20:18:23 GMT -5
<snip> Wouldn's it be better to use a reasonable test. If a player with a bit of experience against the army could identify what these are then they are fine. They are also based correctly and have all the identifying characteristics of the origional model ie. 2 claws, and flies. As an interesting note GW has recently discontinued the Giant Eagle so at this momment there is no model presently avail to represent these. Boldo Point #1: yes, it would. But guidelines are needed to help people make that decision. Point #2: I understand, but there are other eagles and other companies. We don't restrict to GW miniatures (which IS a IndyGT requirement).
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Post by grumgore on Apr 18, 2006 20:33:15 GMT -5
Yeah - I'm pretty sure Mike used mine as the example because in his rules last year he had no way to draw the line on WYSIWYG between mine and a Bull Rhinox rider as a Skaven doomwheel as the two extremes, though I think Mike puts a bit too much thought into it. Most of the vet players in attendance last year let into Mike on pretty hard on this subject, and hopefully he got the message. I for one was prepared to be a complete a-hole and go around to find every scroll caddy mage not modelled with a scroll to be removed had Mike requested I remove my drakes. I think the best way to qualify this statement is that most of the vet players that post on Marauders were against the ruling. There were many that supported me offline, including the vet players. Conversions and creativity are a *huge* part of the hobby, and a big reason for players to attend large tournaments - just to see cool stuff. I'd also encourage the "be reasonable" test - after you inform someone what the model/models represent you get a "hey, thats pretty cool/clever!" reaction, its OK, but if you get a raised eyebrow or a "Really?!?!?" it's probably too much of a stretch. I personally can't wait to nail all those treehugger players that dont WYSIWYG their Spites if Mike really wants strict WYSIWYG. "Hey man, that doenst look like a Resplendance of Luminescents to me!" LOL! That is interesting... you would really try to nail someone on something like that? The WYSIWYG from veteran WFB gamers is a lot different than for veteran 40K players. In general it is a lot more lax. For instance, an entire unit doesn't have to be holding spears in order for you to say the unit is equipped with spears. Likewise, you don't have to paint your sword to be glowing to show it is magical. But at the same time trying to tell someone that that the bow this character is carrying is actually a great weapon wouldn't be allowed. Again, and I think Boldo said it correctly, "Wouldn's it be better to use a reasonable test. If a player with a bit of experience against the army could identify what these are then they are fine. They are also based correctly and have all the identifying characteristics of the origional model ie. 2 claws, and flies. " This is what I was trying to accomplish with my description of what was allowed - I think Boldo just did a better job at describing what I wanted to say. But at the same time I didn't want someone to bring something that *may* cause problems for them at the tournament. And I didn't go into extreme details of what is and isn't allowed because it is subjective. I was only trying to help put guidelines so people would have a better idea of what to expect. The point is that I am not trying to kill creativity. There are many ways to have creative, converted lists, without having a proxie army. And the most interesting point you should be aware of is that both Corey and I made the rules this year... yeah the guy with the rhinox proxie. ;D
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Post by johnboo on Apr 18, 2006 22:35:52 GMT -5
I think the best way to qualify this statement is that most of the vet players that post on Marauders were against the ruling. There were many that supported me offline, including the vet players. As I said- players in attendance. In the end, I think you handled the situation well but it certainly put a damper on my otherwise excellent experience in Oneonta. (Well that and the scoring mixup for my 3rd place finish!) I still cant help but feel it was but one certain player who stirred up that big WYSIWYG mess .... That is interesting... you would really try to nail someone on something like that? Just joking with ya, Mike... at least until ya pick on my elves again! And the most interesting point you should be aware of is that both Corey and I made the rules this year... yeah the guy with the rhinox proxie. ;D Now THAT is funny. I was more taken aback that rhinox riders were allowed that close after the rules were released more than the fact that it was proxied with a doomwheel. But I think in a previous discussion you mentioned it came as a complete surprise that someone showed up with one.
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Post by grumgore on Apr 19, 2006 5:48:10 GMT -5
I just want to make sure that everyone understands that we did try to lighten the restriction this year a bit:
"Conversions for all figures are allowed and in fact may score you more points, but the models must be recognizable. If the miniature does not look appropriate, then it may not be used. Basically if it doesn’t look like what it is meant to be, then don’t bring it!
Special permission may be made on a case by case basis for “Count As” models. You must have permission before you can bring “proxie” models. A few exceptions may be made – for instance using baby dragons as eagles may be accepted if the riders are equipped WYSIWYG, etc. But you must get permission ahead of time."
Believe it or not, I do listen to my customer. ;D
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Post by grumgore on Apr 19, 2006 5:50:06 GMT -5
Now THAT is funny. I was more taken aback that rhinox riders were allowed that close after the rules were released more than the fact that it was proxied with a doomwheel. But I think in a previous discussion you mentioned it came as a complete surprise that someone showed up with one. They did just make it past the allowed time frame that we setup (I remember Saturday night going through that white dwarf, trying to come up with a firm ruling). Things like this is also one of the reasons why I am trying to get lists a few weeks in advance. We can try to take care of things like this in advance of tournament day.
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boldo
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Post by boldo on Apr 19, 2006 8:10:07 GMT -5
Mike there is a difference between a proxy and a conversion and the big difference is the ability to understand what something is. It seems to me that difference is the creative intent. A proxy is a thing not designed for what it is used for. Also a conversion would represent all the relevant element of the item like weapons, movement type, base, and armor. I think they are refering to the halfling anything army of Ridderick. He was using other things for whatever the army de jour is and they were not created for this. In the examples from last year the doomwheel was made for a doomwheel and used as a rhinoxrider while the drakes were made to represent fliers. Jason Halladay is a converting fiend and though he does not allow proxy armies I am sure he would have no problem with the drakes. They started the indie circuit to make tournaments for the more casual player with an emphasis on fun and I agree with John reasonable conversion really improve my enjoyment of a tournament.
Finally from your rules it sounds like equipment whould be wysiwyg. I would assume I can hit my opponent for all books, scrolls, shields, and great weapons (to say nothing of other magic items) which are not modeled. Your arguement that verteran fantasy players know otherwise seems to fly in the face of your stern interpretation of wysiwyg.
Boldo
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boldo
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Post by boldo on Apr 19, 2006 8:22:21 GMT -5
Also what about the dioramic bases many of us include in our units your ruling would throw all these out and I have never had a problem with them. If you are unsure what these are look at Adam Clark's demon army in the 2002 annual pg 38 it has a large display which he puts in the center of a unit like the summonsing circle in his chaos warriors. Finally what to do where GW does not have a model like with the chariots of the demon army in storm of chaos? I would argue everything used is just a proxy by your rule.
I know I am being hard on this but modeling and conversions are huge with me and you not only seem to have a problem with them but let a problem last year with a whinner get out of hand and now you are doing th normal real life thing by coming down hard against everything that could be considered part of the problem. I would have told Cory no to the Rhinoxrider as it is clearly not a conversion. Now if he put a rat ogre on it, removed the rats inside the wheels and put some larger creature and removed the lightning generator I would say sure (though I like this years solution better. ). As for the drakes as eagles I still can not see how these are a problem. They were obviously made to be eagle and players get it with the caldor theme.
Boldo
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