Iron Warrior
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The Iron
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Post by Iron Warrior on Nov 15, 2007 17:24:41 GMT -5
Nice to know some of Da Boyz keep up to date with whats going on for the GT's. Yes it does. Really when it comes down to it Repitition is the main flaw with most armies and comp in 40k. Not saying that what boldo is doing is wrong or what Doug is doing is right.
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Post by adsvampire on Nov 16, 2007 9:17:09 GMT -5
I think you should drop the entire comp system and do judge scored comp. Have people turn their lists in early and just eye-ball the armies. Use a couple of people to judge the armies and you should get a fairly accurate score. I appreciate the effort of your current system but ... it clearly favors some armies over others ... i.e. dwarves, VC, skaven (and skaven definitely don't need a comp boost) ... and hampers the normal build of other armies ... DE, HE, BC, WE to name a few.
There is no paper-comp system that can catch everything. However, experienced players eye-balling armies can catch the stealth-cheese armies.
Also, I really hate fretting over a comp system. People should feel they can take what they want. But defenitely do not do player judged comp.
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boldo
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Post by boldo on Nov 20, 2007 0:36:38 GMT -5
Adam,
One of my problems with judged comp is that at the crossroads 4 of my 5 opponents complained about the comp they received. At the Da Boyz 40k after the tournament the female doging was huge. Now players mention that they like this but they do complain a lot about it after the tournament. Also the real concern in my mind is not weather people like it or not but if they stay away. Do you think this keeps people away?
Boldo
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Post by adsvampire on Nov 20, 2007 9:56:01 GMT -5
I think the system you have listed here will keep more people away than pre-judged comp.
People are going to complain about comp no matter what ... especially if they get scores they do not like (whether they are accurate or not).
When I see your comp list the first thing that pops in my head is RESTRICTIVE. OK, if that is what you are going for then fine, but not everyone plays that way. If you want to draw more people you will need to ditch the comp system. People don't want to travel if they think they can't take what they want. The system you have clearly favors some armies over others and since it is paper-based it is open to abuse.
IMHO judged comp is the way to go. It isn't perfect by any means but it can catch those stealth cheese armies. Besides, you have several experienced tournament players up there, you can get them to help.
Either way I plan on attending ... despite the comp system. But not everyone feels the same way I do.
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Post by johnboo on Nov 20, 2007 13:52:20 GMT -5
Ok - while my first thought is scrap it since by the time someone makes a list to score even half they donteven want to play anymore, maybe relax a bit on stuff that just doesnt matter (like we discussed)?
I'll bold stuff I feel really can be relaxed on below:
1 less than 25% characters. 2 less than 15% characters. 3 No Lord. 4 Less than 11 casting or 7 dispel. 5 less than 8 casting or 5 dispel. 6 less than 5% magic items. 7 3 core units of 2x minimum size not including missile armed infantry. 8 No unit which causes terror. 9 Only one unit which causes terror. 10 No more than 2 skirmishing units not counting characters or warmachines 11 No more than 2 Cavalry units not counting characters 12 No more than 2 artillery choices. 13 No more than 2 chariots. 14 No more than 2 special choices. 15 No more than 2 shooting units not counting artillery. 16 No more than 1 flier. 17 No more than 2 units of the same name armed the same.18 No more than 2 units not counting characters or artillery worth less than 100 points. 19 No more than 3 units which can strike at S5 or greater on the turn they charge excluding characters and champions. 20 No more than 1 rare choices. 21 Two or fewer characters who can strike at S6 or greater on the charge. 22 More than 50% core 23 Fewer than 3 units less than 1.5x minimum size not counting units without option for more models. 24 Fewer than 11 possible deployments counting scouts. 25 No dupicates of special or rare units.
I suppose you can either remove points for bad stuff or add poinst for good stuff - I just bolded stuff I felt are not all that important to worry about. For example why get penalized just because my lord, BSB, and level 2 mage cost more points than joe zippy's Lord, BSB, and level 2 mage?
Maybe a different approach is to just hit what simply isnt fun to play against. This is easier to figure out in judged-comp, but probably can be worked out on a list. Hit the biggies like:
numerous chariots flying terror causer big magic big shooting/gunline all/most cav etc.
Oh, and while you're at it - add master rune of courage to your list. It's cheesier than the hail of doom arrow any day of the week!
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boldo
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Post by boldo on Nov 23, 2007 10:50:57 GMT -5
Okay I had a brainstorm during the slumber of after the turkey feast. It seemed to me that there are only 5 questions that matter, 1 No more than 3 units without a banner that could take one 2 More than 50% core unless playing high elves the more than 40% or playing chaos mortals than 60%. 3 No duplicate specials or rares 4 The army could have 8 or more rank bonus 5 At least 5 different units with 5 or more models. For each of these get 5 pts. Then subtact one point for each of the following.
Every 5% of characters over 15% Every 1% of magic items over 5% Every Chariot over 3 Every S4 shooting unit over 3 Every Cavalry unit over 3 Every T4 infantry unit over 3 without missile weapons Every skirmishing unit over 3 Every unit worth less than 100pts over 3 Every terror causer Every flying unit or monster Special characters dragon Staff of change greater demon Thorek Ironbrow Caradryan Karl Franz hellheart banner of battle second generation slaan anvil of doom rune of stromni redbeard Banner of the lady of the lake Power stone after the first book of arkhan Dispel scroll or rune of spell breaking after the first Huanchi's blessed totem charm of the Jaguar warrior Hail of doom arrow Annoyance of Netlings Icon of Rakaph Dog of war unit in a non dogs of war army
This might not be easier but I do liek it a lot better
Boldo
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Post by ccourtney on Nov 23, 2007 22:43:26 GMT -5
I'll be at any fantasy tournament that I can go to regardless of the comp system that is used, and I guess I'm at a point that I'm going to take whatever I believe to be fun to both play and play against so that I'm not bored and the games are fun.
I finalized my army for painting so I can get it done in time, but I have to let you know that my comp in this new list is down to a 2 which is kind of discouraging.
Start with 15 points (loose #2 cause taking all core units bores me. Loose #4 cause 8 ranks is tough in a wood elf army) -3 pts for 30% characters (lvl 4 on unicorn, noble on stag, and BSB) -2 pts for 7% magic items -1 pts for taking terror causing treeman -2 for hail of doom arrow and annoyance -5 for monsters and flyers - Treeman, Great Eagle, Warhawks, Great Stag, and Unicorn.
Final score: 2
BTW some units certainly hurt with this list. Taking a Treeman Ancient will likely score you -3 comp points? (-1 characters (most likely cause you will take a mage too at least), -1 terror, -1 monster) Seems kind of harsh.
Again, I don't care and will be there anyhow, but since the post is for feedback here it is.
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Post by johnboo on Nov 24, 2007 10:42:48 GMT -5
Well, list looks easier to score, as long as you want everyone to score between 1 and 5. Honestly, it looks the same with just stuff moved around. #2: 60% core for mortals? You'd think you'd want to encourage more mortal armies - they are already spending 18% of their army if they take a lord, bsb and a L2 without magic items. Guess they better spend that 22% left on specials,rares, & magic wisely. #3: I'm wondering what special choice in any army is so broken that if you took 2 you lose 20% of your total comp score?
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boldo
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Post by boldo on Nov 24, 2007 16:03:40 GMT -5
I guess I need to make a clarification. Chris would get a 5 as the flying unit or monster should read flying unit or flying monster. Thus he gets 3 more points.
So I guess you feel this is more discouraging to players than the last one. The problem is I look at Chris's list as I think it is. He has 3 big characters, lots of magic, all the bad items, terror causes, one unit and lots of point denial. This sounds like the typical good list and should score lowish. Sure its badness could be maximized a bit and a second treeman, or the rhymers harp would be worse but it is still a hard hard list and should score low as it looks easier to win with than many lists.
Boldo
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Post by Ranger Dude on Nov 24, 2007 16:20:00 GMT -5
As I haven't played as much Fantasy as most, I do want to comment on one thing. After a few discussions with other players, and based on my own experience, Terro causers don't bother me too much. It's the FLYING Terror causers that bother me. And keep in mind, this is coming from a Goblin player. Terror on foot can typically be dealt with if you pay attention to what you are doing. Terror on the wing can quite often muck you up in the first turn. As I said, I'm not the most experienced when it comes to fantasy, so maybe there are non-flying terror causers I'm not aware of that can do this too. But if it can't hurt me in the first turn, then I d**n well better have something in mind to deal with it, or else I am a really crappy general. It's the first turn terror that bothers me since there is nothing you can do about it if your opponent goes first.
Just my thought.
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Post by johnboo on Nov 24, 2007 16:22:57 GMT -5
No, not more - I just dont see it much different. I wasnt defending Chris' list - his list is evil like the devil. Could be worse, though.
I was more referring to the initial 5 questions.
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shortbus123
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Post by shortbus123 on Nov 24, 2007 21:05:18 GMT -5
I have a problem with # 4 and #5 for Ogre Kingdoms. To get #4 I would need to take 3 units of 20 gnoblar fighters and I really dont want to do that. Also I would need 3 gnoblar units to get #5. Other than that I only get -4 from the big list from the character thing, and Toughness 4 infantry, with a tyrant, 2 butchers, and a BSB which isn't very over the top nor is it not fun to play aganist.
Just my 2 cents.
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Post by ccourtney on Nov 25, 2007 2:42:10 GMT -5
Wow I wonder what is so wrong with this list that it deserves such a low comp score so I'm gonna post it here, This is a 2250 List.
Lord: (415pts) Spellweaver Lvl 4, Glamorweave Kindred, Unicorn, Wand of the Wych Elm, A Bufuddlement of Mishiefs.
Hero: (190Pts) Noble, Wild Rider Kindred, Great Stag, Hail of Doom arrow.
Hero: (137 Pts) Noble, Battle Standard Bearer, Elynetts Brooch, An Annoyance of Netlings.
Core: (132 Pts) 9 Dryads + Branch Nymph
Core: (144 Pts) 10 Glade Guard with Musician, Standard Bearer, and Lords Bowman.
Core: (156 Pts) 5 Glade Riders with Musician, Standard Bearer, and Horsemaster.
Special: (258 Pts) 19 Eternal Guard with Musician, Standard Bearer and Eternal Champion.
Special: (195 Pts) 3 TreeKin
Special: (120 Pts) 3 Warhawk Riders
Special: (166 Pts) 5 Wildriders with Musician, Standard Bearer and Wild Hunter.
Rare: (285 Pts) Treeman
Rare: (50 Pts) Great Eagle
I like playing this list because:
- 1 Squad of Skirmishers (dryads) - 1 Rank and File Unit (Eternal Guard) - 1 Squad of Archers (Glade Guard)
- 1 Squad of Close Combat fast Calvary (Wild Riders) - 1 Squad of shooty fast Calvary (Glade Riders) - 1 Squad of Flying calvary (Warhawk Riders)
- 1 Squad of Monsters (Tree Kin) - 1 Big Monster (Treeman) - 1 Flying Monster (Great Eagle)
- A Battle standard Bearer to keep me from running, and yes I give him the annoyance so he doesn't get wasted in the first round of every HTH. - A single mage on a mount you never see. (chick on unicorn) - A hero on cool wood elf mount (guy on stag)
- Cool theme with heroes (chick on unicorn is reminiscent of Ariel and the guy on stag; Orion) - Every Unit has full command (cause it just seems like they should)
I bet there isn't another army that could easily match that list. This army has a bit of everything in it, I find it very fun to play and would hope it would be more fun to play against than the typical all archers and eternal guard armies. I get to use almost every rule in the book because the units are so different, and I don't get bored with just shooting my opponents to death. If you guys just hate wood elves so be it, but what is really wrong with this army from a comp stand point? Do you really want me to take all blocks of archers and masses of dryads? I have 9 very distinct units that are good at different things, I think that is allot more fun than just a massive number of troop blocks being pushed at me.
Lemme know whats so bad that it deserves a 5/25 in comp.
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Post by johnboo on Nov 25, 2007 11:54:32 GMT -5
Just teasing ya, Chris. The big things most comp systems hit is things like numerous minimum sized units (you have exactly one that isnt) and "no brainer" magic items or units (you have 2 of 3 most common magic items in the wood elf book and the obligatory treeman). You spent less than 18% of your total army on core - shouldnt core supposed to be the "bulk" of an army? You should get extra credit for having full command in units, though. Is it a 5 out of 25? Nope. In the end would I consider your army fun to play a game against and I'd say yes. A pretty good example why a checklist doesnt really work unless you go army specific, or go pre-judged comp so 2-3 judges and eyeball the list as a whole and come to their own score.
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Post by ccourtney on Nov 25, 2007 14:52:02 GMT -5
I guess core units just really bore me, and would you rather play against this army or one that was a boatload of "core" archers blasting away at you the whole game? All the fun characterful stuff is in the specials and rares.
I really like the feel of the dryads, treekin and treeman attacking from the woods. The Wildriders lead by the Wildrider noble on stag charging a flank. The Mage on unicorn and the fast cav archers speeding around and harassing with magic and arrow fire. The Warhawks and Eagle swooping in to take out the warmachines. And marching up the middle the block of eternal guard and battle standard bearer, with elven archers shooting from a hill behind them. That seems like a cool army to face and play against, with a very wood elf feel and a lot of unique things going on. Just seems like what these comp lists want me to take is a wall of archers blasting away at you and a little bit of the other stuff to mop up anything that doesn't have an arrow stuck in it. I don't want to play against that, thats why I'm not bringing it. My most boring games in fantasy are when my opponent puts down 10 blocks of core and just pushes them at me all game.
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