|
Post by adsvampire on Nov 25, 2007 17:13:29 GMT -5
You spent less than 18% of your total army on core - shouldnt core supposed to be the "bulk" of an army?John, this is complete horse-hockey . Some armies thrive on lots of core while others become extremely annoying or difficult to play at best. I'm not going to go into details but IMHO any paper-based comp system is doomed to failure. You just can't cover every army because every army is different. I suppose something like what the WPS uses could be effective (each individual army has its own comp guidelines) but are you willing to put in the work? Seriously, have people turn in their armies early and eyeball them for comp.
|
|
|
Post by adsvampire on Nov 25, 2007 17:18:11 GMT -5
Also, if you guys think ccourtney's army is bad or should score low in comp then you need your heads examined. He's got a single unit of dryads and a single unit of gladeguard. He has no 2 units the same except for the nobles ... and they are in name only. I think his army is a perfect example of why a paper-based comp system just doesn't work.
|
|
|
Post by johnboo on Nov 25, 2007 17:58:53 GMT -5
Hey - re-read my post! Chris asked, I told him what most comp systems would find wrong with his army, then went on to say I like the army and thats why blanket paper comp doesnt work! Honestly, I'd rather play his army than almost any other treehugger build possible. 50% core wood elves would suck a$$ to face - all fast cav & St4 longbow shots. Gimme Chris' list any day....
|
|
boldo
Moderator
The card carrying
Posts: 646
|
Post by boldo on Nov 26, 2007 14:49:45 GMT -5
Here are some changes for the list reflecting what people have said.
1 No more than 3 units without a banner that could take one 2 More than 50% core unless playing high elves the more than 40%. 3 No duplicate specials or rares 4 The army could have 8 or more rank bonus 5 At least 5 different units with 5 or more models or for ogres at least 4 different units with 5 or more models. For each of these get 5 pts. Then subtact one point for each of the following.
Every 5% of characters over 25% Every 1% of magic items over 7.5% Every Chariot over 3 Every S4 shooting unit over 3 Every Cavalry unit over 3 Every skirmishing unit over 3 Every unit worth less than 100pts over 3 Every terror causer Every flying unit or flying monster Special characters dragon Staff of change greater demon Thorek Ironbrow Caradryan Karl Franz hellheart banner of battle second generation slaan anvil of doom rune of stromni redbeard Banner of the lady of the lake Power stone after the first book of arkhan Dispel scroll or rune of spell breaking after the first Huanchi's blessed totem charm of the Jaguar warrior Hail of doom arrow Annoyance of Netlings Icon of Rakaph Dog of war unit in a non dogs of war army
I have seen what Chris' army will do but what about other armies?
Boldo
|
|
|
Post by skyth on Nov 26, 2007 15:39:20 GMT -5
Well, my lizardmen army would get a 0 I think, not that I've played fantasy in quite awhile. I'd have to remember the list, Basically
I know I had full command on anything that could take it.
Old Blood on a Cold one with the 4+ vs high strength attacks, the shield of extra attacks, and a magic weapon of some sort
Scar vet w/Great Weapon and jaguar charm
Skink leader w/feathered cloak and sword of striking
Skink priest w/Diadem of power.
3x12 man (2 scouting I think) skinks w/curved Javelins
6 Chameleons
5 Cold one Riders (With the standard of instant flank charge)
2x20 Saurus (+Dispel, + armor)
Never thought of this as a very OTT list. Just generates alot of dispel dice (7 I believe...)
|
|
|
Post by ccourtney on Nov 26, 2007 16:24:47 GMT -5
So you want my army scoring a 9/25 on this list, and the block of 95 eternal guard with harp, fear banner and all that cheese scoring a 17/25?
|
|
boldo
Moderator
The card carrying
Posts: 646
|
Post by boldo on Nov 27, 2007 0:00:22 GMT -5
Well Chris I was thinking I would score your army 10 out of 25 and here is why. You have a lot of character points, few core, 2 of 3 bad items, and lots of minimal sized units. Lots of your stuff is the hard to kill minimal sized so it is a point denial army. Now the harp army should be worse I get 12-13 on my scale but if I change the first question around to be at least 3 units with command then I get yours better. I am not sure that army is harder than yours though so either way I am good. Now the 2 treeman, 3 units of dryads, 2 units of archers, lots of characters, warhawks, wild riders, is a worse army and should score worse. On your list if you take the treekin, or warhawk riders to 5 I think you get 5 more poitns. This is not that big a change to get to 14 points and that would make your army average scoring.
Boldo
|
|
boldo
Moderator
The card carrying
Posts: 646
|
Post by boldo on Nov 27, 2007 0:37:13 GMT -5
Here are the 5 armies I played at the crossroads. I will give the first comp score, then the second score, and in parenthesis the crossroads comp.
My army at Crossroads was dwarfs Lord, thane BSB, Runesmith, 2x25 warriors with shield, 25 warriors with GW, 20 warriors with shield, 17 slayers, 15 hammerers, 10 thunderers, 10 quarrellers, cannon forging rune, organ gun. 22, 25 pts (crc19)
Wood elves 24 eternal guard war banner, 3x8 dryads, 12 glade guard, treeman, 6 wardancers, 5 wild riders, hero on eagle with hail of doom arrows, Lord with annoyance and harp, noble BSB standard of fear, mage 2 dispel scrolls. 7pts, 3pts (CRC14)
Savage orcs, 2 x30 savage orcs, 25 savage bigens, 10 savage boarboyz, 3 river trolls, 3x5 spider riders, Orc warboss, shamman, orc BSB, orc hero, all savage. 17, 20pts (CRC19)
Nurgle,Demon Legion, Great unclean one, Herald on demonic mount of nurgle, 3x10 plague bearers, 3x3 plague riders, 3 nurglings, 9 furies. 12, -1 (crc4)
Tomb Kings King in flaming chariot with 5+ward, spear of get back a wound i 2 liche priests one with jar, Tomb prince dispel dice, 2x25 warriors, 2x3 chariots, 3 scorpions, 3 ushabti, giant. 8, 3 (CRC12)
Tomb kings, Tomb King, 3 liche priests, cloak of dunes dispel scroll and jar, 3 ushabti, 3 chariots, 2x6 carrion, 2x24 skeletons, giant catapult. 9, 3 pts (crc13)
when I have more time i will do more but this seems to indicate that the first one was better though much more complicated to do. Perhaps I should work more on that.
Boldo
|
|
|
Post by johnboo on Nov 27, 2007 7:26:44 GMT -5
L4 Great bray Shaman, Slaanesh mark, Chaos daemon sword, chaos armor
L2 bray shaman, braystaff
2 wargors, great weapons, lt armor
5 hounds 10 hounds 2x18 herds, xhw, ch & mu, 7 gors, 11 ungors 20 slaangor FC 20 bestigor FC 3 beast chariots 10 centigor FC 5 mtd daemonettes 2 fiends of slaanesh
This either gets a 20 or a 15, depending on if 2 for 1 choices in the special/rare count as duplicates. (question 3).
|
|
|
Post by johnboo on Nov 27, 2007 7:38:51 GMT -5
My Crossroads Ogre army is a 3 ;D
I AM KING OF CHEESE! Courney's got nothing on me!
Tyrant, GW, BoH, HA, Deathcheater Bruiser BSB, HA, Sword of striking Butcher, Bangstick, Powerstone, tooth gnoblar 3 bulls, LA, IF 5 bulls, LA, IF, FC, lookout gnoblar 3 ironguts 5 ironguts, FC, lookout gnoblar 3 leadbelchers, M 3 leadbelchers, M 3 yhetees Gorger Bull rhinox rider, HA, M
This only qualifies for Question #1, and gets -2 for the rhinox (terror & DoW unit).
|
|
|
Post by ccourtney on Nov 27, 2007 9:46:29 GMT -5
Ok I give up.
I always believed a army should score bad comp if:
1) It was made to win at all costs.
2) Was intentionally made one dimensional to overpower the opponents ability to resist it. i.e.; 15 Power dice, all shooty, all heavy calvary, all fear and terror causers, etc..
3) Found the best unit(s) in the army book and just took those in multiples.
Then there are the things that should get dinged on comp (but not a severely as above)
1) Lack of command units. It just seems right that most units in the army should have commanders. (there are exceptions to this, like scouts only taking a champion, because would they really be sneaking thru the woods waving a banner and blowing a horn?)
2) A Lord without some form of magic weapon. (Did the lord really only want to show up with a rusty great weapon? He controls an entire army but has no magic weapon? come on.)
Then there are things that should help your comp:
1) Taking units that are not played very often.
2) Not taking units that are in every army of your race (or only taking 1)
3) Themed armies (that are not using theme as an excuse to be one dimensional butt kickers)
4) Made an effort to make a fun army that would be enjoyable for your opponent to play against.
I can score a perfect 25 in comp on this list by taking: - Lvl 4 Spellweaver, Wand WE, Starfire Arrows - Lvl 2 Spellsinger, Arcane Bodkins - 15 Glade Guard, Banner - 15 Glade Guard, Banner - 15 Glade Guard, Banner - 10 Glade Riders, Banner - 10 Glade Riders, Banner - 5 Glade Riders, Banner - 6 Scouts - 6 Scouts - 6 Scouts - 8 Dyrads (This is the ONLY unit that won't be running away from you and blasting you with arrows! Hell even the mages have bows and magic arrows!) - 5 Waywatchers (no banner available)
Yeah have fun getting blasted by this army with 95 arrows a turn, on top of whatever magic the 2 mages hit you with. The whole army can move and shoot without minuses too so I hope you have some fast dwarfs to catch them, talk about point denial. (this army gets a 24 in comp if sneak an eagle in there to further slow your army down, between the eagle, and waywatchers and scouts farting around in your lines you will never get to march)
Sounds way more fun and better composition than my army, definitely deserves a perfect 25 in comp. And regardless if you can make an army that laughs at this one and beats it no problem, the point really is: Is this a good comp army? would you rather play against it than my army? Should this army be rewarded with 16 more points starting the tournament?
|
|
boldo
Moderator
The card carrying
Posts: 646
|
Post by boldo on Nov 27, 2007 11:10:32 GMT -5
I am starting to think that the second one is crap and going back to the first one which though complicated seems to give a result more in line with what I think. I do agree that it is too complicated. One of the things I find odd is that if I do judged scoring then people build what they want and accept (with lots of grumbling) their score. If I put down a checklist John and Adam believe people will fiddle to try to break it and if it is too complicated then you think people will not come. Finally a harder more complicated checklist would be better but more disheartening. So why not jsut use a hidden checklist? This will be the third checklist i have used and I must admit that with some exceptions I like the results. In most cases there are some arbitrary things which a bit of tinkering can get a few points in the list but not a ton.
One of the weirdest things I noticed at the crossroads was Matt Yorks comp score was a quarter of mine. Now IMHO our armies were the same. Yes his army would score well in comp and I think it should. Is it a hard army? Only when played well and that is what comp should reward. It is much harder to win with that than the SAD army for example. Yes my system is going to favor horde armies and those books with better core (I believe all books have good core and got a 60 at Baltimore with a high elf searman army which scores 18). Now last year Corey had the lowest comp and won and I have already halved the value of comp. So what can do you folks think I should do?
Boldo
|
|
boldo
Moderator
The card carrying
Posts: 646
|
Post by boldo on Nov 27, 2007 11:27:13 GMT -5
Chris,
I feel comp should be a handycap for playing an army. When a Lord is present there should be a huge host of troops to protect them and every noble should have a contigent of troops which they bring. First I feel that 60% troops and 40% character is too character heavy. Second I do believe that core is just that, the heart of the army, and should atleast be half the points (as well as half the models and units). Finally Magic items should be rare and special items passed down through the generation and treasured above all else. To liberally spread them out and in particular use them to cover weaknesses in the army is IMHO power gaming. Now I also believe that comp should have variety, not maximize any one segment of the game, not use minimum sized units, and not concentrate on the best stuff. As such your list has some problems but many which are fixable with a few models or a small change. Now is it the worst high elf list -- not even close but it is way harder than John's posted ogre or beastman list.
Boldo
|
|
|
Post by skyth on Nov 27, 2007 11:27:56 GMT -5
Well, (I think) my lizardmen recieves a 6 on the old system...Still a bit low I think *shrugs* Granted, it's an unusual lizard army (None of the usual big hitters you always see like Salamanders/Kroxigors/Terradons/Slaan). Comp matrixes tend to score the unusual armies weirdly.
|
|
|
Post by ccourtney on Nov 27, 2007 12:02:52 GMT -5
I have no problem reciving a 9 in comp, that is not my complaint or concern. What I don't like about these comp lists is when the guy next to me has an all archer / all magic / or 1 super block of eternal guard type army and scores higher in comp, and that is going to happen with this list. I made my army list with no concern for your comp sheet, just taking what I wanted to play and thought would be fun, I have no problem with a 9 comp score....or even lower, thats fine gimme a 1. It just gets me when a guy with a brutal win at all costs wood elf army gets 10-20 points more cause he fit it into this list. And I'm very sure if you asked our opponents what army they want to play against it would be mine, isn't that the point?
It seems like the only concern here is to not have people questioning why the received a certain comp score. Not to have any complaints because it is up front.
The complaint I have and I think you will receive instead are why certain brutal armies where allowed to score so high in comp, and they will.
In the end it comes down to if you are OK will giving an army like mine a low comp score and the all archer / eternal guard block of doom type armies close to max comp? I don't care how low mine is, it just stinks to have cheesy stuff like these armies score higher.
|
|