Winter Assault

[Iron Warrior]

Doug I like the direction your going, very cool ideas.
Would we need people to help make these two unique pieces of terrain?

As for set up, im my opinions the standard set up for apocalypse would be just as good, nothing is requiring anyone to line up on the line every game. This give a 12" zone from your enemy. I see no problem extending it like a normal game or 24" apart, just keep in mind it may limit deployment space, perhaps making the table a little longer could help allievate this problem?

I like the idea of Deamons and Chaos vrs Marines and Ordo Malleus. It makes sense to me that Daemon hunters would be around for a major deamon incursion.

Onto the Stratagems, this can get sticky and I know we have had talks about these before. But lets bring on the ones most likely to be used.

Careful planning: Alone its fine, combo with Flank March it can be potentialy game breacking

Flank March: Obvious reasons this can be game breaking if left alone.

Disruption beacon: I really believe this was to counter the Flank march stratagem. Its annoying but I think a nessasary evil if flank march or formations that allow many troops to deploy ontop of your enemies positions.

Null field generator: Seen it once, not all too effective. Not really something I would be too concerned about.

Blind Barrage: Seems to have become another one of those ones every team takes. Seems ok to me.

(All the bombardments) Seen them all, not too bad.

Surgical Raids: Fine alone, combo with the assasins formation and its pretty rough.

Replacements: This is ok, can be used to bring back some really hard things to kill like titans, gargants or Bio titans. I can say it was disapointing to see the bio titan come back after we killed it. But perfectly legit.

Those are the Strats I would concentrate on and seem to be the ones that people have concerns with. If I missed something feel free to add it.

Oh also I think there was a discussion about Reserves. I could be mistaken, but as I read it, I believe that on turn 2 up to half of your reserves come in and then on turn 3 everything else comes in. After that there are no more reserves, becuase everything should be in by then. I didnt see any mention of reserves on turn 4. I do know there are special formations/strats that either Speed up this or slow it down but nothing that extends this process of reserves. Essentially what Im getting at is that you have 2 rounds of reserves and then everything should be in and thats it. Does anyone else see this diffrently?

[Lord Dacius]

Call me ignorant but isn't flank march just on one particular unit? If so I don't see how it could be game breaking at all, it could do some damage, but if one unit can break your entire game, your game wasn't very strong to begin with.

[smittyrj78]

If memory serves me right I believe it is anything that was held in reserves can flank march..
Ron yes according to the base rules for Apocalypse every thing should be on the table by turn 3 or turn 2 with careful planning..

[Lord Dacius]

My mistake, then ill amend what i said, If it was made to only be one unit, then i would have no issue with its use. It is quite unfair to bring int ungodly ammounts of units in the backfield.

[Garou24]

Will team be getting their secondary objective at the beginning of the game? or on another turn? Like turn 2. If at the beginning of the game, then a 12" deployment would work, because players would also be deploying where they could work toward their secondary objectives. So less units would just line up on the line.

Some assets like the beacon and flank march can really set a team back, especially if used in conjunction. Future debate will be needed and maybe we can work on a list of changed or restricted assets ahead of time.

[Norton]

Ron, a couple points I'd like to bring up.

The Apoc. rules do assume you get your 2 turns of reserves, but I would like to see that be clarified. It assumes everything comes in on turn 3. BUT there are now at least 2 that i can think of, rules that put units back into reserves.

I want to clarify the Apoc rules to say that anything put back into reserves comes back in automatically on further turns. (btw, eldar have skyleap, deep strike has the mishap table, the Reserves strategem)

Particulary I believe the Reserves strategem comes to mind, as it gives rules for Rolling that 4+ every following turn, meaning the only way you'd get to roll even twice would be if I go 2nd, you whipe out a unit turn 1 and I immediately pick it for reserves... Sounds very very limiting... And most importantly, this isnt a big change and will lead to more, not less, fun in general.


I know this post was long winded, but I wanted to make sure it was as clear as possible. Without sounding like complaining either.

Any points not make sense? Let me know and I'll clarify further.

[Solstice]

If there is room I would love to get in my first game of apocalypse. I already have 2500 points of dark angels and 800 pts of fallen angels painted so i can make my army work for either imperials or chaos and still be fluffy. I can have cypher(azreal rules) and a full squad of fallen manipulating dark angels for chaos or leave em out and run pure imperial dark angels and still have enough points either way with painted apocalypse formations like masters of the chapter or hunt the fallen. If im chaos i can't do hunt the fallen, just too much of a stretch for an awesome fluffy setup like what your going for.

[Lord Dacius]

Chris you should play DA, the fluff for Lord Dacius would go well against your army. I said that he is a former dark angel who tzeentch has tasked with deystroying your chapter to protect the fallen angels.


it might not the best fluff but i like it.

[MajorSoB]

OK a few clarifications so far.

1) 5 people per team. 2500 points per player. Sunday January 11, 2009
2) Chaos versus Space Marines ( with Ordo Malleus)
3) Modified set up, 24" away.
4) First turn vehicles may move an extra d6 ( difficult terrain checks, etc apply )
5) First turn units on foot may run an extra d6 ( all other rules involving run apply )
6) No custom data sheets with possibly the exception of Chris's baneblade if HE alone plays it. Points will be whatever we played it at before.
7) Formations may be shared between several players however the points for the formation do need to be accounted for somewhere. Ex. The Imperial players may take the linebreaker formation, maybe Tommy has 2 vindies and Terry has 1. Either Tommy or Terry would then have to take the points out of their allotment if this formation was used.
8) The main objective will be the control of the Chaos Altar. Chaos will indeed benefit from the strategem rules outined in the Reloaded book for having this. The Imperials will have the access to the Legion Relic as described in the Reloaded book.
9) Secondary objectives will be drawn by each team from a deck, 1 card per player. This will happen before deployment. Some cards may be blank while others will have specific goals. Teams may discuss them amongst themselves before set up but the player who draws that particular card is responsible for that objective. More later on this .
10) Strategic assets: Disruption beacons will be limited to a 5+ now. The only exception is the cone of silence or whatever the hell that one is. That objective smacks of azz and will not be allowed. Flank march can only be used on one unit that may enter together. Ex. A landraider may flank march with the unit inside it. I want players to still have access to all stratigems except the one stated in the previous sentence but do not want any to be gamebreaking. We can discuss this further but you see the direction I want this to go in.
10) House rules: A baneblade or titan etc may march on from a board edge even though it can only move 6". It must clear the edge then stop. Yes my ruler works but it doesnt make sense not to be able to do so if you want to.
11) Reserves: Normal reserves must be on the board completely at turn 3. Special circumstance in which units are removed and place back in the reserves are the exception. For these particular instances a 4+ roll will be used to determine if they reenter the game on each turn afterwards. In cases where victory points revolve around this unit, it will count as a victory for the opposing team if they kill the unit forcing it into reserve. In cases like sky leaping swooping hawks, if they are not on the board at the end of gameplay the opposing team will also receive victory points for them as well. We play this game to have models on the table to fight. Marines engage the enemy and fight, they do not run away.
12) As for the board I am looking at a rectangle with the chaos altar placed somewhere in a central city amongst ruins. This objective may be hidden and each unit might have to fully contact a marker, give up shooting and roll a 5+ chance that they have found the hidden altar. At this point the altar will be "power up" and replaced with the appropriate model complete with whatever powers it has with it.

How are we doing so far?

[Garou24]

The objectives... the Chaos altar and Loyalist relic. Does that mean there are 2 objective, one of each to control? or is it just everyone looking for the chaos altar?

[MajorSoB]

The chaos altar is a physical objective which empowers chaos per the Reloaded book.
The legion relic is an uber weapon carried by an Imperial player that does some sick damage per the Reloaded book.

I wanted each team to have something to balance the benefits that of the chaos altar would give one side. The main objective will be control of this chaos altar.

[Iron Warrior]

Looking good Doug, Just have a few questions.

The extra movement on turn one, I question if its really needed? We already have the new run rule, what about vehicles on roads? Do they move the extra 6" and then the extra d6"?

Do the imperials start with thier objective (The Legion Relic) and chaos has to get to thiers (Chaos Alter)? Only looking for clairification

How would something like deamon summoning form the new deamon codex work, or death wing assualt where things that are put into reserve can arrive on turn one. Do we ignore those rules and just go by the strategic reserves rule (which I can see being the case) or do we use the special rules for the books in question (also a viable option) Again, just some clairfication as they affect both armies I may play during thins. Thanks Doug.

Norton, even though there has been a ruling on this by Doug already, I am interested in where it says units come in on the next turn if the aqre removed from the table in the apoc book. I may have missed that. Can you pls PM me with a page number so I can reread that part of the book. Also imo if there are special strats that alter the reserves then I would assume that the normal reserves are something that are a fixed variable. Of coourse I will reread the section you are refering too. Thanks.

[jdubb]

Sept 12, 2008 12:45:11 GMT -5 MajorSoB said:

OK a few clarifications so far.


6) No custom data sheets with possibly the exception of Chris's baneblade if HE alone plays it. Points will be whatever we played it at before.

What about Lords of Battle Data Sheets from Bell of Lost Souls?

[Garou24]

Do the imperials start with thier objective (The Legion Relic) and chaos has to get to thiers (Chaos Alter)? Only looking for clairification

Thats a good one i was fuzzy on also. I will have to read through the book. i have not picked it up yet.

[MajorSoB]

They are widely accepted as "standard", I would allow them. I just dont want to get into the whole bickering that tends to erupt when we try to decide what is fair or overpowered in regards to custom data sheets. So far we are 2 for 2 in the argument department when dealing with custom data sheets. So for my sanity only GW data sheets and the BoLS battlelords data sheets should be acceptable as well.

As for the Legion Relic, the Imperial side will decide who is carrying it, much like a vortex grenade, before battle begins and it will be brought into play however that particular IC character arrives at the fight.