Iron Warrior
Moderator 
The Iron
Iron Within! Iron Without!
Posts: 2,573
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Post by Iron Warrior on Apr 11, 2010 21:25:15 GMT -5
In essence unit spam is frowned upon althought there is an accepted amount of spam that is...(tolerated, allowed?) accepted. This amount is usally based upon how good the unit is. The better the unit is the more often you will see a negative response to it when it it spammed.
Now as for the Rhino vs Tervigon debate. Hands down the Tervigon spam is far worse than the Rhino spam on a point for point basis. Infact anything that can spawn Scoring units is a superb choice. And lets face it. If your worried about victory points you obviously dont spawn any extra. You are almost garunteed 2 spawns of guants from each tervigon. (44% chance of rolling double on 3d6 for those math hammers out there) 20 extra guants on the table per tervigon. Pretty good choice.
So I wouldnt be surprised to see someone docked for 2 Tervigons, I also wouldnt be surprised to see the Mech armies docked as well. Throwing everything in a transport is not a theme its annoying, 8 Squads in Rhinos/razorbacks/chimeras isnt diversity, (who do you think you are the Ford Automotive Company?) I dont care if you have the squads armed diffrent you still took tons of the SAME tank becuase......its good. Its Spam and I hope you ready to eat it on your soft socres. Yum!
I would like to point out...if the people who are winning all these tournaments with NO comp and NO sports (Or where it matters so liitle it may as well be none) are spamming units...them maybe they are just too good? I mean no offense to those players and that play style, I just dont agree with it and dislike playing against it.
Ultimatley, You choose to play how you want and what you want. If comp and sportsmanship is your concern and its in the hands of your opponent, I would recomend you play a nice and fair army or prepare for some point loss in those score.
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Post by skyth on Apr 12, 2010 0:38:36 GMT -5
. Throwing everything in a transport is not a theme its annoying, Throwing everything in a transport or having them being fast movers is VERY MUCH a theme...Rapid reaction mech force...A hodgepodge of guys on foot and guys with a transport is what isn't themed. Having a force with a cohesive movement speed reinforces it as an army rather than a random collection of squads. Just because something is effective does not make it not a themed force. The vice versa applies as well...Just because something isn't all that effective doesn't make it themed. Theme often requires duplication to reinforce the theme. Many of the 'power' lists are thematic, and thus get nicknames that make them easily recognizable (Flying Circus or Godzilla for example). It's kinda funny...In 40k, I perfered a cohesive force...In Fantasy, I perfer a non-cohesive force in most cases. |
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Iron Warrior
Moderator
The Iron
Iron Within! Iron Without!
Posts: 2,573
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Post by Iron Warrior on Apr 12, 2010 13:04:19 GMT -5
As always and not surprisingly we disagree Skyth. Im curious as to how many games of the new edition you have played and how many mech armies you have played against, for example the imperial guard. (they have a new codex out have you picked it up? - I only ask becuase im uncertain if you know what the new rules are for this edition and the codexs we speak of)
What you call a "Rapid reaction mech force" I call I took 16 chimeras becuase I get cheap multi lasers and heavy bolters in a decent transport.
But since we are talking about "Theme" here and not game play let actually talk about theme. And I know this is a bit off topic as it always tends to stray that way when dealing with vivid minds like yourself Skyth. Alot in this game takes from real life history. YOu see hints of histroy all through the 40k universe...the greeks in The Ultramarines, the norse in the space wolves, The russians in the valhalans and Vostroyans. These are nice themes.
If we go to the explicit definition of theme: An implicit or recurrent idea; a motif. Then it seems like you are right, Vehicle spam or MC spam is a theme. Or what I like to use is a saying from Norton. When asked what is your theme, in regards to one of his armies, his reply was, "Kick Ass". Now how do you argue with that. So in essence yes you are right in the literal sense. It is a theme.
But perhaps I should have reworded what I said. I should have said compisition or composed well, becuase its not. Composition: The manner in which such parts are combined or related. Well, why did we take 16 chirmera (or whatever) " Goly gee wally, maybe cuase thier just too dag gum good?"
Just a little history for you (im a ww2 buff) Transports are not ment for combat, thier entire intention is to Drop of thier troops, in rapid succesion and then leave the battle field so thier "Hodge podge" foot sloggers can fight. But hey not everything from history has to be taken into account in the game.
The current ruleset and codexs support Transport spam becuase its diffacult to kill a vehichle now. Now Vehilces are at a premium, cuase thier good...too good. If you took alot of vehicles back in last edition where you could destory them with a glancing hit then I would not mind seeing that many. Spam (A Decent amount) is a result of something being unbalanced and an intention to gain an advantage. That how ever is subjective to the player, the army and the edition you play. If you want to make a grot army I dont think anyone will care NOR will it result in a comp loss in points. Good luck Tommy!
To end this up, We have been discussing Comp alot lately over the months, years? Comp changes with codexs and Rules editions. I hope you all can see that. Taking something that is good once is fine. Repeating that selection twice thats where composition starts to come into play.
Skyth, You having said you are a supporter of tournaments without comp or theme, I dont feel I have to continue this debate with you. Why argue with someone that is apparently just playing devils advocate to agrivate people. (thats what some people call a Troll on forums, Not calling you one, just letting you know that. So I bid you a fond farewell an adue.
Spam is bad,
Dont Feed Trolls.
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Post by Horst on Apr 12, 2010 13:10:12 GMT -5
I'm gonna agree with you iron warrior, spamming transports is not a theme.
However, I like to believe that you can do a mechanized theme army within reason...
3 tac squads in rhinos or razorbacks, with supporting heavy vehicles I would consider a theme. (especially in white scars style chapters known for rapid assault)
18 razorbacks loaded with lascannons + plasma guns with min sized troops, while also mechanized, is NOT a theme... its just cheap.
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Post by skyth on Apr 12, 2010 13:19:38 GMT -5
Nice ad hominum attacks there Ron, and ignoring my entire point to do so.
My point was that Mech armies are indeed themed and that theme is independant of power.
As for the transports not supposed to be in combat...Modern IFV's (Chimeras are very reminicent of modern IFV's) are designed to support the troops in combat situations, not just drop them off near the fight and run for cover.
I will also point out last edition, mech guard (Where everything that could be mounted in Chimeras needed to be) was a doctrine for guard armies, not to mention, I remember part of a Gaunt's ghost's novel where everyone mounted up in Chimeras to head somewhere, and yes, the Chimeras got involved in fighting.
By the way, I'm not really opposed to comp. I am opposed to the demonizing of people that play differently and to adding comp to determine the 'Best General' when the comp score includes things that is not related to the power level of the army.
I don't mind a fair comp system based purely on the power of the list...not based on a theme, 'variation', or who you are. I've always said that theme should be scored as part of the appearance score, not the comp score.
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Post by skyth on Apr 12, 2010 13:23:17 GMT -5
I'm gonna agree with you iron warrior, spamming transports is not a theme. However, I like to believe that you can do a mechanized theme army within reason... 3 tac squads in rhinos or razorbacks, with supporting heavy vehicles I would consider a theme. (especially in white scars style chapters known for rapid assault) 18 razorbacks loaded with lascannons + plasma guns with min sized troops, while also mechanized, is NOT a theme... its just cheap. Actually, both armies are 'Themed'. (When I'm talking a mech theme, I'm more talking about the first example...I might add some bikes and/or jump troops). However, one army is clearly more powerful than the other...Theme is entirely different animal than the power of the list. |
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Post by Horst on Apr 12, 2010 13:24:53 GMT -5
I went out and got a list from yes the truth hurts, as an example of a mech list with no theme.
Palatine w/Book, 5 Retinue, 2 MG, Immolator
Palatine w/Book, 5 Retinue, 2 MG, Immolator
5 Celestians, 2 MG, Immolator
5 Celestians, 2 MG, Immolator
5 Celestians, 2 MG, Immolator
10 SOB, Book?, 2 MG, Rhino
10 SOB, Book?, 2 MG, Rhino
5 IST's, 2 MG
5 IST's, 2 MG
5 IST's, 2 MG
5 Dominions, 2 Flamers, Immolator
5 Dominions, 2 Flamers, Immolator
5 Dominions, 2 Flamers, Immolator
Heavy Support: Immolator
Heavy Support: Immolator
Heavy Support: Immolator
players with lists like this SHOULD be demonized. the entire purpose is to just cram the list with as many tanks as possible. If thats your goal when making a list, you shouldn't be coming to our tournaments. Mechanized can be part of a theme, but mechanization alone, a theme does not make.
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Post by MallSecurity on Apr 12, 2010 14:50:17 GMT -5
The above list is nasty because it lacks theme? It seems to just be a geared power-army.
However, I'm sure if someone sat down and thought about it for awhile they could write up some nice fluff/theme for that list.
On the flip side I have seen a number of crappy lists that have no theme either.
Power lists are power lists... I don't how theme fits into the formula to the degree that is being suggested.
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Post by Krusty (zack) on Apr 12, 2010 16:57:01 GMT -5
that list is themed...
themed around flamers and meltas and mobile infantry...
that list is also a qualifier for a free kick in the balls to anyone who tries to play it...
theme and power are totally unrelated i think...
its not hard to justify repetition of the best wargear//transport//unit options by saying its a theme, and its just as easy to see your offers for games dry up by doing so...
and there is a major difference between trukks and chimeras, as well as rhinos and razorbacks...
trukks and rhinos are transports, chimmies and razorbacks are mobile firing platforms...
spamming one to have a mobile force, and spamming the other in order to take ridiculous amounts of cheap firepower are totally different levels of play...
calling it theme or repetition doesnt change the effectiveness of a list...
like ron said there is a reason why many of the top armies at adepticon this year were chimmy//valkyrie leaf blower lists...
armour is way more durable than almost any foot sloggers nowadays, and the cheap mobile firepower is a must for a "power themed" list...
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Post by skyth on Apr 12, 2010 17:11:32 GMT -5
5 IST's, 2 MG 5 IST's, 2 MG 5 IST's, 2 MG When part of the list is on foot, it doesn't have a mechanized theme to it. You're forgetting one important part. People have fun in different ways. I for one wouldn't have an issue playing against that list. Bullying people because they play differently than you just shows YOUR lack of character. -Note...I have no issue if you believe that YOU wouldn't have fun playing against that list. That's a personal opinion that I can respect though disagree with. Actually it does, and there are sub-themes to Mechinization. |
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Post by Horst on Apr 12, 2010 17:20:53 GMT -5
the 3 IST squads ride in the heavy support immolators.  People can play whatever they want, but anyone who brings a list like that to a tournament that is trying to encourage balanced lists really are not playing to the spirit of the tournament, and should be heavily penalized. |
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Timbo
Sergeant
Posts: 175
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Post by Timbo on Apr 12, 2010 18:58:27 GMT -5
To the OP, I would have no issue with 2 Tervigons. You're not spamming them (you could have as many as 6 if you wanted), and I don't think they're a game breaker. But as we've seen, some people see this as a problem. Just be willing to accept the occasional comp hit.
With the mega Immolator list of doom, it would depend on the context. If it's a tournament focused on bringing a balanced list (like the GT), it would be a definite no-no. But if you want to play it in casual games or at ard boyz, go for it (which is why I have no interest in ard boyz). Not everyone has to like the same aspect of the game.
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Post by skyth on Apr 12, 2010 19:35:05 GMT -5
the 3 IST squads ride in the heavy support immolators. Oops...I see vehicles in heavy support for Witch hunters and I immediately think of Exorcists. There's a huge difference between Demonizing/bullying a player for taking a powerful list and penalizing them in the tournament. |
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Post by Krusty (zack) on Apr 12, 2010 20:18:01 GMT -5
but if someone did show up to play on a normal playing day with that kind of list, it would undoubtedly grow very old very fast, probably ruining the game for others...
so shouldnt you let someone know that their list is a pain in the ass if they are going to get docked on it in a tournament that they are paying to play in?
i dont see how 'demonizing' and comp are different if both are telling the person that their list isnt fun to play against...
and as long as fluff//army list justification has been brought up, anything can be reasonable in an army list by some twisted fluff reasoning, or else it wouldnt be playable in the rules... (even gw can keep something like that in line)
sure, vulkan and a few small scout squads came to help out the sisters cuz they needed help against the big baddies...
or the slaaneshi chaos warband on a rampage towards middenheim are led by some nurgle or tzeentch heroes because they decided to kill the previous slanneshi leader and take command...
would any of these things happen very often, or ever at all, in 'reality'? no. probably not. but just in case, you can make an army like that...
does it make a justified theme? if you are playing to win, yes, if you are playing for fun, no
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Post by skyth on Apr 12, 2010 22:39:23 GMT -5
i dont see how 'demonizing' and comp are different if both are telling the person that their list isnt fun to play against... Demonizing someone is telling them that they are a bad person if they take that list or threatening/suggesting physical violence to people who use the list. It is just a form of bullying. Not being 'fun' to play against is subjective and a personal opinion...Again, I have no problem if you tell someone that YOU don't consider a list to be fun to play against. I have issues with blanket statements that a list isn't 'fun' to play against. Personally, if I don't have fun playing against a list, I do the mature thing and look at my list and what I could do differently with it. I don't hold the other person's list as responsible for my fun or lack thereof. Then again, my 'fun' isn't determined by who wins a game or even who is more likely to win a game. Comp shouldn't have anything to do with the list being 'fun' to play against (especially since that is increadibly subjective). Comp is a balancing device based on the power level of the list. |
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