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Post by chumbalaya on Apr 12, 2010 23:23:53 GMT -5
Wow, really guys?
I know I haven't been around recently (work, school, torn ACL, good times :/), but stuff like this really doesn't encourage me to come back playing any time soon.
A person should not be demonized, bullied, or threatened with violence based upon the kind of toy soldiers they play with. Are you for real? People have different tastes in armies or the level of competition. If somebody doesn't like the same stuff as you, an adult will agree to disagree and they'll move on. The attitude here against competitive play is childish to the max.
I like strong competition, stuff like that Immospam list doesn't make me angry, scared, or indignant, it entices me. I love a good challenge, and that list is certainly challenging, especially when run by somebody who knows what they're doing. A game being fun or friendly doesn't depend on the lists in use, it depends on the player. A thingyhead playing armor spam is just as bad as a thingyhead playing some POS battleforce army.
You know what's not fun? Going in for a competitive game, say to a tournament, and catching flak for trying to win. Getting death stares and complaints because of my choice of dollies. You want a casual game? Just freakin' discuss it beforehand and cut out this passive aggressive browbeating.
A themed army is just that, an army with a clear theme. That theme can be mechanized awesomeness, Immolators, the Imperial army holding drop zone B12 on the 75th day of the Siege of Tarxus Spaceport, and so on. I prefer a themed list over a hodge podge of units you're forced to take to be "acceptable".
I despise comp in all forms. It's a crutch weak players use to avoid getting forced out of their comfort zone, or some laughable attempt at amateur game design that makes things worse. That said, I don't mind if people use a comp system for, say, Overall, but leave Best General for people who like to compete. I don't bite, I swear, I just want to play a fun and challenging game. Giving anything less than my best is disrespectful to my opponent. There's room enough in this hobby to fit everybody in, from the painters to the powergamers and everyone in between. The best event is the one that encourages everyone to excel in whatever areas they enjoy most.
Rant off.
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Iron Warrior
Moderator 
The Iron
Iron Within! Iron Without!
Posts: 2,573
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Post by Iron Warrior on Apr 13, 2010 0:36:35 GMT -5
Woah Woah Woah, lets not blow this out of proportion here. NO ONE is being demonized, Physically threatened or bullied. Where this idea came from is beyond me, NEVER has an instance ever taken place in my long extensive years of war gaming of thie ever happned. This is a Farce and a Lie. No one in any of Daboyz tournaments I have attended or have run has there ever been a case of this.
Skyth is being way over dramitic with his martyrdom of his beliefs how games should be played. No one is putting him on the cross or has even threatened physical abuse.
His and Yours Chumba, ideas of how the game should be played are just not popular belief in this gaming assosiation. Daboyz GT and Other tournaments ran by Daboyz always have and will have a Comp score and Sportsmanship Score (unless noted otherwise, Like 'Ard Boyz) Its a belief of this gaming assosation that we can win with tactics on the table rather than having it decided when the army is created. We pride ourselves on being able to beat those lists with our "non comptetive" lists as some like to call them. We like to reward players that take time out to make good armies that dont spam units or just take the best stuff in thier codex.
We are talking about Comp here (at least I am) not Theme, people seem to have these two words mixed up. See my previous post for details and the diffrence between the two.
As for your last post Chumba, I have a suggestion for you, instead of alienating yourself from an entire gaming assosiation how about one sunday you come on down to Boldos on Monroe ave and play one of our "D!ckhead, Weak players thats use comp as a cructh to avouid getting out of thier comfort zone or some laughable attempt at amateur game design that makes things worse." And you will see first hand that you can have a challanging game with comp.
As I have said before, if comp is your concern then play a nice list. If not play what you want. But if the tournament you attend has a comp score. Dont complain about it becuase you took a tooled list. Suck it up and eat your spam. (thats sounds gross)
Here is a heads up, Daboyz GT this year WILL have comp. As a judge and organizer this year, I am letting you in on this secret. (its not really a secret).
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Post by Krusty (zack) on Apr 13, 2010 0:53:20 GMT -5
obviously 40k and most minis games are challenging games...
i enjoy the challenge of the game... like you...
however, i think the challenge should be mroe about the tactics and planning implemented by the players, not the minmaxing or spam or cheese in their army list...
that being said, im gunna leave this alone now...
this always turns into the same argument between the same people arguing the same points with the same outcome of no one even having a second thought about it the next time they sit down to write a list...
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Post by skyth on Apr 13, 2010 1:15:24 GMT -5
Woah Woah Woah, lets not blow this out of proportion here. NO ONE is being demonized, Physically threatened or bullied. players with lists like this SHOULD be demonized that list is also a qualifier for a free kick in the balls to anyone who tries to play it Comments like that ARE bullying. Of course, Ron tends to ignore things that don't fit his view of the world. |
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Post by Krusty (zack) on Apr 13, 2010 1:39:16 GMT -5
...and when we lose momentum in giving our points, theres always an opportunity to simply bash people...  |
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Post by chumbalaya on Apr 13, 2010 6:48:56 GMT -5
I didn't just make that up, no backpedaling  I'm not cutting myself off from the game intentionally because we disagree, I've just been real busy lately and real life cuts into game time. Any time I get free and want to go play I get this little voice that pops up "people will strong lists should be demonized" and I figure, if I'm just gonna get the typical passive aggressive "trying to win is for losers" deal, I won't be enjoying myself and I'll just play at home or on Vassal or do something else. I don't have a lot of incentive to come back and play regularly if my way of playing is considered wrong or unacceptable. I don't have a problem playing casual games with a goofy or de-clawed list, it's just not my first choice. That's why I think it would solve a lot of problems if people just talked about their expectations before getting games in. "Hey, wanna play casual or competitive?" Would solve a lot of problems and get everybody involved on the same level. I didn't call anybody here a thingyhead, I said that a thingyhead is a thingyhead regardless of the list they run. A fun game depends on the players, not their lists. Comp is a crutch and is really does limit people. Rather than learn how to beat stuff like Immospam, you can just tank it on comp and never have to worry about it. That doesn't help your game at all. I'd be happy to get games in with more experienced folk, but like I said I've got a lot going on atm and having a throwdown with somebody over an internet argument is probably one of my least favorite things to do. Zach, that's what competitive play is about. Powerful lists don't run on auto-pilot, except against the kind of poorly optimized lists that become wrote in a comp-heavy environment. Immospam vs an Ork Battleforce is ridiculously one-sided and no fun for anybody. Immospam vs that 16 Chimer mech Guard is a real championship bout and comes down to tactics and player skill. I'm about the latter, pitting the best you can bring on the table and in your head against the best I can muster. No cheating, no rules manips, no whining, just a friendly and sometimes intense competition. The win doesn't matter as much as earning it does. I'd rather lose a close competitive game where I learned something than table a noob. I'm not saying we should totally drop casual gaming, painting, sports, or even comp. All I would like is an outlet where I can play 40k the way I prefer. I'll gladly give up any chance of winning Overall just so I can compete for Best General against strong lists without having to worry about what 1 or 2 people think is OP. Take a step out of that comfort zone, you may find you like it |
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Post by Horst on Apr 13, 2010 7:05:05 GMT -5
meh, my only problem with the immo spam list is that d**n near every squad is minimum sized, so they can fit in more special weapons.
In fluff, in nearly all instances, they talk about full size squads engaging the enemy, not every squad being split in half.
If you wanna do an immo spam list, then fine, but take max size squads and boom, I wouldnt mind playing you. Its not a hard jump to make. It may be slightly less powerful, but it makes more sense in the context of the 40k universe.
Same reason I don't just spam razorbacks and 5 man tac squads... razorback spam with marines may be powerful, but its just NOT something that would happen in a 40k engagement. I know you can write fluff to justify it, but the fact is, it would be a rare occurence, rahter than the normal.
simply make a list that can be said to be a typical battle force for your faction, and boom, you have a high comp score in my book. Maybe not a perfect 5/5, but it certainly won't be the 0/5 that a min/max optimized list is gonna get from me and most people here.
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Iron Warrior
Moderator
The Iron
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Post by Iron Warrior on Apr 13, 2010 8:46:01 GMT -5
Chumba, I think now would be a good time to say, Lets just agree to disagree.
As I see it, you yourself are demonizing people for playing how they think this game should be played, by name calling and essentially saying thier way is inferior to the way you want to play the game. Just look at your last two posts.
So in closing (for me), this is becoming a stalemate discussion about comp vs no comp again. I for one dont want to get into yet another long boring discussion especially one with false accusations and name calling. I think we have seen enough posts like that (its called flaming). So I wash my hands of this, wish you all the best of luck with this discussion but my opinion of how this game should be played remains, yet again and unsurprisingly, unchanged.
Oh and Sundays, Boldos. Put up or shut up.
Have fun all! ;D
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Post by chumbalaya on Apr 13, 2010 10:06:37 GMT -5
I'd much rather we reach an understanding than resort to name-calling, for sure. If I offended anybody I am sorry. All I'd like to do is give people some perspective and maybe, just maybe, show them that playing a strong army doesn't automatically make you the antichrist |
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Post by shilekjalan on Apr 13, 2010 10:58:08 GMT -5
Chumba, I think now would be a good time to say, Lets just agree to disagree. As I see it, you yourself are demonizing people for playing how they think this game should be played, by name calling and essentially saying thier way is inferior to the way you want to play the game. Just look at your last two posts. So in closing (for me), this is becoming a stalemate discussion about comp vs no comp again. I for one dont want to get into yet another long boring discussion especially one with false accusations and name calling. I think we have seen enough posts like that (its called flaming). So I wash my hands of this, wish you all the best of luck with this discussion but my opinion of how this game should be played remains, yet again and unsurprisingly, unchanged. Oh and Sundays, Boldos. Put up or shut up. Have fun all! ;D Greetings, Like it has been said, the question of comp and cheddar generals never really goes away. So what about this: 1) Ardboyz tournaments for those who do not like composition 2) Rogue Traders for those who like composition 3) Grand Tournaments as number two Grand Tournaments are supposed to be a representation of the hobby and culture, especially when paired with Games Day. So obviously, they need to be about more then winning at all costs. Ardboyz are only for winning at all costs, as anyone could tell within about 2 minutes of going to one. Rogue Traders are about all the skills of the hobby and not just winning, that is why there is composition there. Maybe this will make some peace. Even though it was very entertaining to read the arguments. I was personally taught how to command and taught the culture by one of the top five generals I have every met, anywhere, in almost 16 years of gaming. He taught me this: Ardboyz all the time, nothing else. Then I learned how to do the other way. Both are fun, but it is good to balance them so players can let out both sides of their command personality. Courage and Honour, Ave Imperator |
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Post by evil_red_orks on Apr 13, 2010 11:00:25 GMT -5
Play whatever list u guys want, however i better not catch anyone bragging that they beat me with an 'Ard Boyz list and THINKING they are a better player than me. Especially when Im bringing ork units that no one else plays
My freaking wife could win a couple of games with a leaf blower list or something similar.
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Post by hyv3mynd on Apr 13, 2010 11:42:27 GMT -5
Whoa sorry I opened that can of drama. Thanks to all who made constructive replies and explanations.
I'll just make a list I like and that's entertaining to play. I don't take anything in triplicate and tyranids can't end up with 9x anything like some armies so I won't worry about doubles reducing my comp score enough to knock me out of placing.
At the end of the day, I see just about every point of view as viable. A lot of the 40k fluff includes stories and creative license with events that we could not imagine happening, so you can't tell someone their theme is just a coverup for a must-win army build. The best explanation for this I think came from Steve about transports and minimum unit sizes such as razorback or raider spam. Dedicated transports would be deployed to a battlezone to transport and assist infanry units. Spam lists take minimum troop sizes to maximize vehicle count and would never be the mindset of a true commander. If a commander wanted to flood a battlefield with razorbacks, he would do it without putting 5 soldiers in each one who would surely perish if their transport was destroyed as opposed to 10 soldiers.
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Post by chumbalaya on Apr 13, 2010 13:45:22 GMT -5
Greetings, Like it has been said, the question of comp and cheddar generals never really goes away. So what about this: 1) Ardboyz tournaments for those who do not like composition 2) Rogue Traders for those who like composition 3) Grand Tournaments as number two Grand Tournaments are supposed to be a representation of the hobby and culture, especially when paired with Games Day. So obviously, they need to be about more then winning at all costs. Ardboyz are only for winning at all costs, as anyone could tell within about 2 minutes of going to one. Rogue Traders are about all the skills of the hobby and not just winning, that is why there is composition there. Maybe this will make some peace. Even though it was very entertaining to read the arguments. I was personally taught how to command and taught the culture by one of the top five generals I have every met, anywhere, in almost 16 years of gaming. He taught me this: Ardboyz all the time, nothing else. Then I learned how to do the other way. Both are fun, but it is good to balance them so players can let out both sides of their command personality. Courage and Honour, Ave Imperator 'Ard Boyz isn't that great. It's the most competitive event we get, but that is far from my preferred venue. 2500 just breaks down for a lot of older armies and the scenarios often end up ranging from unbalanced to outright stupid. An RTT/GT should reward all aspects of the hobby, so why is actually trying to win the game (an aspect of the hobby equally as valued as painting, theme, sportsmanship) frowned upon? Hence you keep Best General BP only so those who want to compete can, just like you don't comp painting, and Overall can factor them all in. I suck at painting, but I'm not going to call somebody names if they paint better than me. Let everybody enjoy the hobby as they want to, actively discouraging one or any aspect doesn't make for a good representation of the hobby. Play whatever list u guys want, however i better not catch anyone bragging that they beat me with an 'Ard Boyz list and THINKING they are a better player than me. Especially when Im bringing ork units that no one else plays My freaking wife could win a couple of games with a leaf blower list or something similar. How can you prove that if you only run poor lists? List building is an integral skill to being a good general. How often does your wife play? ;p A good list run by a noob against a bad list will work out for the good list. However, if you have a more experienced player against the netlist, the good player trumps build. Any chump can copy a netbuild, but it takes a good player to understand how to use it properly and how to beat it. That's why you don't see many experience players running netbuilds, they tweak and adjust as fits their play style. Get better, and Leafblower (which isn't all that good to start with) won't scare you  Whoa sorry I opened that can of drama. Thanks to all who made constructive replies and explanations. I'll just make a list I like and that's entertaining to play. I don't take anything in triplicate and tyranids can't end up with 9x anything like some armies so I won't worry about doubles reducing my comp score enough to knock me out of placing. At the end of the day, I see just about every point of view as viable. A lot of the 40k fluff includes stories and creative license with events that we could not imagine happening, so you can't tell someone their theme is just a coverup for a must-win army build. The best explanation for this I think came from Steve about transports and minimum unit sizes such as razorback or raider spam. Dedicated transports would be deployed to a battlezone to transport and assist infanry units. Spam lists take minimum troop sizes to maximize vehicle count and would never be the mindset of a true commander. If a commander wanted to flood a battlefield with razorbacks, he would do it without putting 5 soldiers in each one who would surely perish if their transport was destroyed as opposed to 10 soldiers. Razorbacks and Immolators can only carry 6 men/girls, so there's no point in fielding 10. That would actually defeat the entire purpose of fielding Razorbacks. If you want some fluff, say the strike force has taken heavy casualties as a result of a costly Drop Pod assault, so squads have been re-organized and deployed in Razorbacks (retro-fitted Rhinos if necessary, they are modular) to make up for the reduced man/girl power. I much prefer a cohesive looking army (y'know, it looks like an army ) than a mish mash of random stuff taken just cuz. |
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Garou24
Chapter Master
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Post by Garou24 on Apr 13, 2010 16:41:52 GMT -5
Physical abuse, bullying and demoralization is very much alive and well! Why i remember a game against an opponent (who's name will be omitted) with my Khorne Chaos Army. He saw that I fielded not 1, BUT 2 Squads of berserkers... 10 man squads at that, not 8, and proceeded to "loose his Sh!t" He grabbed a nearby broom and struck me with it multiple times as he ranted and screamed at the top of his lungs about Comp and Theme and squad duplication. I remember curling into the fetal position as I howled back "Its not duplication! One squad as a plasma pistol and one does not! Its a Khorne army!!!"
Actually that never happened..... but you would think this was a regular occurrence given some people's replies.
People need to understand that everyone plays differently. Some like comp and fluffy armies that rely on less effective troops for either an added challenge or for fluff reasons... or both.
Some people like a stronger list that is tweaked and streamlined. Made to make the best use out of every points and to be a competitive army able to take all comers.
Some people are a mix of the two.
But in the end we all play this game because we enjoy it and I know that the Comp system used at the GT is not to punish anyone or make them not enjoy the game. Its there to emphasize the "Style" of play that The DaBoyz are know for. This is the way many of the players like to play who frequent the store. Its also the way the tournament organizers decided to run the GT.
Players know ahead of time that comp will be a part of the GT, as will Painting and Battle points and Sportsmanship. Complaining that comp is included is not going to change things. It just makes the complainer look like more of.. well .. ya know.
I would not sign up for the 'Ard Boys GT and then go into a nerd rage because they do not have a painting score. Its stated that the tournament will be for battle points only and bring your best. Models don't even need to be primed. So you know what I do? I don't attend the 'Ard Boys tournaments. Simple as that. I know compy players that do go and they say, "You know? I went knowing that the tournament was going to a hard list event. And since I had that mindset I was able to have a good time."
So if your very concerned about the fact that the GT has comp, maybe do not go.... Or you can build a list that is balanced and includes a high comp element. And guess what? GASP!! You might have fun after all!
/shrug
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Iron Warrior
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The Iron
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Post by Iron Warrior on Apr 13, 2010 17:30:01 GMT -5
Brian! I thought we were never going to speak of that night! I was so drunk...and what ever happned to that greased pig?  |
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