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Post by evil_red_orks on Mar 12, 2013 6:56:37 GMT -5
I guess all this is a matter of perspective, i have been with the DaBoyz for around 10 or so years now. I remember when 40k was fun to play, now id rather paint than play. I guess some change is inevitable..new players, new editions, old players leaving and such.
I still cant believe how drastic the change has been(for the worse IMHO). I consider myself a decent player, i have placed very well in some out of state tourney's. Over the past couple of years or so though, i have been getting but-raped at local tourneys. This past team tourney we were tabled 2 games in a row by like turn 3.Also got tabled more than a few times at the DaBoyz GT. I look back at past GT's and have discovered that each time comp was graded less the worse i did.
I dont really care as much about getting tabled as much as i care about why its happening. In the end it comes down to building lists to have fun, which is of course relative. What is fun to play for one might not be fun for others. However none of u guys are that stupid, and u know what you are doing when u build your lists.
This is what is gone from the game in a major way, and 6th edition doesnt help that at all.U got flyers and non fluffy ally lists all over the place.
Maybe im a glutton for punishment playing a khorne army. i think i maybe got off like 3 assaults during the whole tourney this past saturday. But its fun playing khorne, cause u dont see them much.
I guess a try to be an example for everyone else when i create an army.
And now im not making any sense...cya!!
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Post by Brinan The Barbarian on Mar 12, 2013 14:48:54 GMT -5
I agree with you 100% Terry. I know I haven't seen you in some time, but that is not my every week army. That is my suck it power gamers list, lol. I did want to offer you a game with a more fair army some Sunday at Boldo's if you are able to.
Anyways, I do miss the old play style of I'm going to take a fun army and beat you with skill, not I'm going to take a balls nasty army and destroy you on spam. Tactics have become a thing of the past. There's no skill in letting your army play its self. I also consider myself a skilled player. I infact won an ardboyz tournement with a completely balanced list. (one of everything chaos daemons thrown together the night before) Simply put, the game was at a point where I could beat my opponent with strategy. 40k has become warmachine, where I can look across the table and say either yup, i can win, or yup, no matter what I do, that army will destroy me. No point in playing the game anymore if I can determine the result before any dice are rolled.
Timmy comp ftw!
Also, thanks for the applause. How kind=]
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MajorSoB
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Post by MajorSoB on Mar 13, 2013 0:01:49 GMT -5
Good post Terry. I cannot refute what you are saying because most of the time I feel the same way as you do. While I am glad that I was able to find you a partner to play with ( again, thank you Kevin ), I am sorry that you had a miserable time. If you want to hang out sometime, paint some models, talk with the old guys and have a fun game, I will never turn you down, You are one of the bright spots and one of the reasons I show up. I do believe part of the reason you are not enjoying events is that you look at them through an outdated perspective. Hear me out:
When you and I started playing this game it was a fun excuse to hang out with the guys and paint some models, roll some dice, tell stories and generally have a good time. Tournaments for the most part were run by GW but were not the main focus of the game. GW sponsored events. The rules were somewhat scaled down and less prone to exploitation and abuse. When something "broken" was found like Siren ( old 3rd edition Chaos ) it was seldomly used because no one wanted to be "that guy". I think the game we used to play was called Warhammer 40K right?
Well now days the game has changed and evolved. What you see being played around here might look like the game we used to play but don't be fooled. It's not. This game doesn't center on fluff and war in the 40th century but it gets its life from rules and the internet. Many new elements have been added and this game has become much more complex. While there are still elements of fun left in it, the main focus is winning, not painting your models, not making sure your opponent had a good time, but to grab all the points you can and come out on top. You tend to build armies like a lot of us old timers do. You pick a theme you like, buy the models that look cool and try to unite them with paint and a play style you might like. From what I see, we are putting the cart before the horse. In 6th edition, now what you do is pick a model or a unit that is grossly under costed and over powered. Max that unit out. Add it a special character or two which will combo and give you some really great powers. If you can spam it too. Find some other elements to exploit like psychic powers or flyers and cram them in as well. Add in the other key elements to make your list legal and there you have it. If you don't like doing the math, just search the internet and copy the last list of what won the latest event. There you have it, Tournament Hammer 40K. If you doubt me think back to what won DaBoyz the past two years, a Black Templar army that abused the "fair and balanced" comp chart, and Cron Air that fully took advantage of the broken flyer mechanic in the game and the lack of any comp.
Ok so I guess what I am saying is this, if you want to have fun contact me or any of the other old guard and we will bring out some fun lists to play with. We will have a good time, I promise. But if you think bringing a fair and balanced list to a local event will make for a fun afternoon of wargaming, I think you are sadly mistaken. That my friend is the difference between Warhammer 40K and Tournament Hammer 40K. Personally I haven't given up on either. With my friends I fully expect to continue to play Warhammer, but at events I will play Tournament Hammer if I show up. Brian and C4's list was king last weekend, but rest assured that in its absence there were plenty of other list there built for the express purpose of winning. Your enjoyment was not taken into account and will not be in any upcoming event.
That being said, I loved your army, I thought it was one of the best painted armies there ( although there is nothing concrete to judge that on ) and would love to play against it with one of my chaos lists sometime. I hope you have a good time next month in Chicago.
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Post by Krusty (zack) on Mar 13, 2013 9:09:57 GMT -5
i think if i have learned anything from our tournaments the last few months, its this: encourage others to bring balanced army lists, but play the nastiest, most bad-ass one you can.
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pogysnacks
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Post by pogysnacks on Mar 13, 2013 9:55:12 GMT -5
See something is different at this scene in NC, the players all know how tournaments are going to be: No comp...so when you go to a tourney with 16-20 ppl, you have a good idea of what's going to show up, but we adapt and overcome that's all, allies, fortifications etc.. The major difference being its always been like that, there is no comp matrix it's bring what's going to win, but the community knows it and gets along with one another. A lot of the people on this forum have no clue about composition, sorry what you've played and considered comp is nowhere near as strict as it was, how many of you guys would actually be able to play without 3 special characters? No you're not bringing net lists or spam lists, a lot of what I'm seeing is all the good in a codex packed into lists and varying choice to show face: oh see no spamming!! News is you don't need to spam to have a cheesy list, eldar have done it for years, but for you competitive players: GW doesn't care about your game or its fairness all they see are dollar signs, rules are going to be off, codices imbalanced, but I'm sorry to have to say this: stick to a system, if its not going to be comp than suck it the hell up and adapt rather than female dog..if its gonna be comp: suck it up and adapt Now if its going with no comp, don't be a Titan among MEN and encourage balanced lists but bring some tooled up nuts you say is "balanced"..balance meaning hell bring 1 hq? Only 2 heavy choices? I saw a list on here awhile back claiming to be balanced and compy, it had Maugan Ra in a dark eldar army...I almost nuts a brick
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Post by hyv3mynd on Mar 13, 2013 10:14:13 GMT -5
Whoa hey now. I'm the only person around here that plays Maugan in a DE list and I NEVER claimed that army was compy or fluffy. It was for the 2012 GT which had no comp scoring.
Maybe since you live in another state and don't attend our events you should stay out of these discussions.
There are points to both sides. The OP spoke of spammy crap or whatever and the fruit of his loins showed up with 18 flamers and 18 screamers. People have said things like "this club's members play fully painted" and then show up with primered armies.
It's all fine, whatever. Play the format. Adepticon has no comp so if you think the one WAAC list we had last week was bad, you're in for an unpleasant surprise in Chicago. When there's a prize support pool of $200+, some people will show up to win. It's the nature of tournaments and competition.
If you're going to preach about comp and painting and fun lists, you better practice what you preach (like Terry). If you bring a list so strong you have to apologize to your opponents, maybe you're doing something wrong. If you do that multiple tournaments in a row, then you come across as disingenuous and fishing for sportsmanship points. Nobody forced you to spam screamers and flamers, it was your choice own up to it. It was a non-comp event (both times) so people should expect that stuff anyways. It wasn't long ago that I got shot off the table by a Marbo/Pask/PBS list at a comp event also. I can count the people on one hand that actually practice what they preach around here.
How about everyone focuses on their own armies, collections, hobby choices, and behavior and we quit blaming others for whatever is wrong with the tournament scene these days.
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sinistermind
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Post by sinistermind on Mar 13, 2013 10:28:00 GMT -5
People misuse the word balance ALOT! In what way does balance mean "i took weak units on purpose" , as its defined the word means well-rounded and has variety, now depending what codex(s) you bring balance can be either very powerful or meh... in a list balance just means taking a variety of units with multiple purposes or abilities such as 1-3 assault units, 1-2 ranged specialists, and maybe a librarian hq for buffs, some units in transports and maybe an outflanker/deepstriker.. for all intents and purposes that persons list cannot be called unbalanced because in the codex he uses balance is strong!
Balance/= fluffy and if you want fluffy either make a prize for theme or read a book instead of attending a competition
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sinistermind
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Post by sinistermind on Mar 13, 2013 10:40:54 GMT -5
There's no skill in letting your army play its self. If you were the guy with the deamon spam list, do you mind recalling another list there that played itself besides yours? Because i can't
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Post by Krusty (zack) on Mar 13, 2013 12:33:28 GMT -5
It wasn't long ago that I got shot off the table by a Marbo/Pask/PBS list at a comp event also. I can count the people on one hand that actually practice what they preach around here. what event was that and who played that?
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Post by hyv3mynd on Mar 13, 2013 12:54:37 GMT -5
Not sure if serious or cheeky.
You at the invitational which per the store owner is a free event and "will always have comp scoring". If I remember correctly the list had 7-9 vehicles, 2 unique characters/upgrades, and a flyer. Fully mech nothing on foot, I conceded on turn 3 down 7-4 with no ability to score any more points before I was tabled. The single most lopsided game I've played in 6th ed because I was fooled by the "comp format" yet again.
If the environment is getting screwed it's because people are saying one thing and doing another. If 2 unique characters with a flyer, multiple tanks that ignore cover, and a PBS to make everything else run away is "a balanced list" and not "the nastiest, most bad-ass one you can", please write my army lists for me as well so I don't hurt anyone's feelings.
Like I said before, people should just focus on their own stuff and stop worrying about what others might, could, or should do. If you want to stand up for fluff, comp, or fully painted whatever, lead by example.
List "hardness" is an escalation thing. If people anticipate having to face screamer or flamer spam, they will build their lists accordingly.
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Post by grubnards on Mar 13, 2013 14:48:05 GMT -5
Couple of points 1. LOL... LOL... thingy-stomping your friends to show power gamers you can beat them by being a power gamer = priceless, well played sir. Wait... if you were trying to impress anyone then the only person you left an impression on is Terry. Sad. 2. Why, for the love of God, do we keep spinning our wheels month after month, trying to compare Millennium's events to the old Da Boyz club and "everything" they stand for, i.e., comp, painting, themed lists, etc... These are events run by Millennium, by Travis and by proxy, smitty. Nowhere in the fine print does it say that the monthly events are any way endorsed by Da Boyz or run in a Da Boyz format. Period. So bring what you want and play what you want. Just don't be sanctimonious and say that you want to play a comped, themed or friendly lists but then show up with a nut busting list. 3. Venom posted that 26 people attended the event on Saturday. By my best estimate of what I saw being played at the event then only 1 out of 26 players brought a true WAAC/Power gaming list and they did it for the "LOL, suck it people" effect. So the ones who like to complain about lists brought, are actually the ones who brought said lists. Pot, meet Kettle. 4. Podgy, I "think" I played you once at a Millennium event way back in 08, when I first started playing at Millennium. I believe you played the Chaos Marines Slannesh army with a crap-load of blast masters and you were a nice enough guy to talk to me about strategy after stomping me. If that wasn't you then I apologize and then I don't think I've played against you before. But regardless, as Hyv3 said, maybe it's time to bow out of these talks. Yeah, we get it that you play with a ballz-to-the-wall crowd and that any one person from down there could run us "compy" players. But until you have the ability to start playing up here again and contributing to the group then just sit back and watch the mayhem. Since you are stationed down south I’ll put this into perspective for you. This board is like watching NASCAR, we spin ourselves around in circles week after week and people lurk/watch these threads, hoping that we end up crashing and burning. Hopefully we do it well enough week after week for your amusement. 5. Doug... I honestly do not know where you are coming from anymore in your posts. You approach the gaming community with one hand opened, proclaiming that you want to help and contribute but behind your back you have the other hand in an iron fist, ready to smash down anyone who happens to think differently. For example, here is a section from page 2 of this very thread: So in this post you "appear" to be lamenting the fact that "this group", of which me and people I consider friends are a part of, is killing the hobby and that your only "benign" motive is to rescue the local hobby scene and make it fun for new players and "old timers" from a few years back to play 3rd edition style games. But in your latest post (last night) you stated: So from this I gather that you will play friendly games on arrangement only but from now on will play all tournaments in a nut-busting format, regardless if you happen to play against a new guy or against a friend, like Terry, just to get back at "the group" that is killing the hobby. So now you've stooped so low as to join the "rest of us" in stomping everyone and "not taking their enjoyment into account" (your words) but yet claim to be above us? Seriously? And then in another thread you asked about painting, almost like you cared about it. Then when you get a response from the person doing the judging on what their criteria is you make comments like this on another thread: Which amounts to a slap in the face against smitty because he doesn't use a three page painting criteria sheet like they used to in the "old GT" days. Hey, when you finally get back to running these events you keep talking about then you can give Terry a gold star. But seriously, why the attacks each month? Why the venom against the community each month? Why is it the same old "doug" posts year after year? You claim to be doing this for the "betterment of the hobby and community" but the only result from your posts I see is a huge wedge being driven into this community. Yes, in person you can be nice and friendly, but man, get on your backside and let the poison fly on the internet. Let's look at the pattern since I've been on the boards in 2009; skyth - check, chumbalaya - check, Aaron - check. Guess I just earned a spot on that coveted list as well now, eh? You see, as much as I want to believe that you want to "better" the community, all I see is someone buffing their ego every time they post a response. 6. From page 2 of this very thread... Couldn’t have been summarized better. The best thing that could come out of all of this is two things, either Millennium just stop running 40k tournaments and let the community decide to play the way it wants within their own little enclaves OR you just stop. Stop the attacks and either attend or don’t attend the monthly events with the full knowledge that this is the future of gaming. Period. The rest of the gaming community has moved on and evolved over time with each edition but it seems like you are hesitant on changing. Guess what, that’s on you, not the rest of us.
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MajorSoB
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Post by MajorSoB on Mar 13, 2013 15:05:38 GMT -5
WOW, I think the world just ended, I'm feeling dizzy, I think I just agreed with Aaron again!!!!
I guess the best way to classify what you all have been referring to about preaching comp and then doing a 180 would be called stealth comp. It's been running unchecked here for quite some time now, so let's all call a spade a spade and admit what we all play here, balls nasty lists cause winning is all we care about.
You know Aaron you are 100% correct. Last weekend was Adepticon prep and if you think the Daemon list that won was nasty, wait til you see what else come from that event. It's the way the game is played now.
To answer your question Sinister as to why my boy apologized for playing his list it's just this simple. He grew up playing 40K. To him and a lot of the old timers here, it used to mean having some respect for your opponent and taking a middle of the road list then earning your victory on the table. Special characters were frowned upon and outright banned. Like I said the game has move forward but many are still stuck with the idea that playing a nasty list against a feeble opponent is wrong. But please don't worry, I will beat that idea out of him like it has been beaten out of me and fully encourage him to play Tournament Hammer, no apologies necessary!
Let me get this straight? Pask and Marbo are OTT? Really? One character that is a one shot wonder who dies and gives up a kill point, and another 50 point upgrade for a plus on BS and Armor pen. This combo is too OTT to play in a comp event? Again really? Then explain to me how a Eldred and Maugan Ra list won the DaBoyz COMP tournament and ALMOST TRIPLED my comp score that year when I played ZERO special characters??? Hmmm. At moments like this I am reminded of a quote by a great American, fellow founding DaBoyz member and tournament organizer who once said, "If it is legal in the codex then we have no right to restrict it in our event." Next time Zack, don't take special characters, take Obliterators, oh my bad, you can't do that either!!!
And lastly Kevin, here is where I am coming from. Like Terry and some of the old guard I have had a stigma in my mind about playing nasty no comp lists. I have shown up for the past several years playing with my old mind meta when the game has clearly moved on. Trust me though my eyes have been opened. The way the game is played now seems similar to Magic in which you are looking for broken combos, rules exploits and the like. My frustration has come from the idea that things might change and go back to a kinder style of play when clearly they will not. Like I said in a sunday game with a friend or when trying to instruct a new player on how to play the game, I will back off my play style, but in an event why should I dial it back anymore? If the sacred DaBoyz event is any measuring stick to be used it is clear that the winner of the past few events have taken very nasty lists irrespective of whatever comp has been thrown their way. Clearly this is the direction the game has progressed to and I am now in full support. And to answer your question on "the gathering", Boldo's most sundays, starts at noon, closes when the last game is done or there also is a place called Pair-A-Dice where they do not hold tournaments and play a much friendlier style of 40K. Have you been there? I have. Good people, good gaming environments and they actually talk to the new players who are trying to learn the game. Case in point, I have a game scheduled this sunday against a Tau player who told me that he had a hard time getting a game in at Millennium, no one wanted to play him or talk with him. Think I am making it up? Show up sunday then at Boldo's and meet him!
And before I stop posting I do want to address painting. All I wanted was some sort of idea on how to improve. You played my army, clearly I made the effort and wanted to know why there was such a disparity in scoring. That was the reason for the post, not to flame anyone, however when I got the response, "blah, blah, blah...I didn't get a good look at all the armies and it was a biased choice based on my opinion" yeah I think the decision could have been made better, maybe be a staff member who could have taken the time to look at all the armies, and maybe with some sort of outline as to what separated a 10 from a 6. As stated above I felt Terry's army was as good as any army that was present but it was not reflected in the scoring. Pardon me for asking why.
And before we close let me address one last thing. The acknowledgment, or lack there of, that some of the gamers gave my son and C4 when they won. Some left early. He also heard some snide comments as to his list. And last when he was announced some people refused to clap. Yeah the same people who had clapped for the people before him. I stayed, and I clapped for everyone! Shame on any of you who couldn't put your hands together for a golf clap. I saw you and you know who you are. Say what you want about me, I don't care but you are no better and showed your character too when one of your "buddies" didn't win and you had to clap for someone else. This is what divided this group as much or more than any of my internet posts!!!!
-Rant over, I'm done.-
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Post by hyv3mynd on Mar 13, 2013 16:52:13 GMT -5
Perspective is key. I'm a lot newer to the 40k scene than many of the posters here. 3 of the past 4 GT's have used special characters and spam as the primary violations of comp. How else am I supposed to gauge it? Comp scoring doesn't exist in the rulebook or any codex, so if the old pro's and TO's tell me special characters and spam is bad, that's all I have to go with. So yeah, in my book 2 special characters, 3-4 chimera hulls, 2 russes, and a flyer in a comp event is OTT. Such is the subjective nature of comp and why people will never agree and unite under that umbrella.
Like Smitty said in the other topic, painting score was team based involving both portions of the coalition. Terry's CSM were indeed beautiful, I especially loved the maulerfiends. I've told Konrad and even Smitty that his guard is one of the best out there with freehand script on almost every model. But the scores represented both portions of the teams.
Snide comments and lack of clapping... please. Look at any thread with 4 or more pages and your participation and you'll see more snide comments than you can count. Indeed even in this very thread on page #1. You reap what you sow. If you bring a list that's unfun to play against and nearly impossible to beat, then you came to win so be happy with your stack of chips. Terry voiced his opinion and several more did to me in the parking lot afterward. Doug, you said you'd take a flamethrower to a 'Cron Air list if someone set it up across from you, but you're a sad panda when nobody claps for the screamer/flamer spam?
People would take you more seriously if you weren't such a flagrant hypocrite.
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Post by Goldeagle on Mar 13, 2013 18:31:40 GMT -5
Brian and C4's list was king last weekend, but rest assured that in its absence there were plenty of other list there built for the express purpose of winning. I was there too, and like Sinister, I only remember seeing one stomp face list. Everybody else seemed to be playing reasonable armies and there was even a decent amount of theme. Me and Zack lost because the dice gods decided to hate us, not because we played WAAC opponents. Perhaps I'm am too old or naive to see it, but I thought the lists I saw were fairly balanced and all were beatable, with the exception of the above mentioned list of course. Honestly, I don't get what all the fuss is about, but I'm certain that this constant bs is sucking the life out of my favorite weekend fun.
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Post by professor on Mar 13, 2013 18:35:43 GMT -5
I am going to go on the record that while the Daemon list played was powerful - it was also a really horrible list.
Here is why it is terrible. First, it absolutely smashes a subset of armies that really have no actual response to it. Those armies lack the firepower or sacrificial units to rip it apart. For those people it is not fun at all to play against - which should be a consideration since this is a "game."
I missed the Jan/Feb tournament - but I won in Sept-Nov and placed second in the Invitational. I played a Daemon army with 1 unit of Flamers, 1 of Screamers and the only non-troop duplicate was a pair of Soul Grinders. Troops were 12x Daemonttes, 5x Horrors, 9x Horrors and allied cultists. How is that list not a diverse representation of the Daemons codex.
I will fess up I left early - not due to the results, family emergency. I also made comments about that list - if I had played it I would have told him he was a jackass for bringing it. A fact he was apparently well aware of when he apologized to the people he played.
Do not bring that kind of army and expect hugs and kisses - expect for the other Daemon player to look at that and say 'Wow, what a jerk move.'
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